Alphabet wars.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Question for the class: 

Can anyone shed some light on the different spellings of Natasha's name?  Specifically I'm thinking "Romanoff" versus "Romanov."  I was noticing that the AO3 tag has "Romanov" while in the movie they spell it "Romanoff."  I suspect it has something to do with Russian grammar/spelling and American bungling of same.  There's also the "Natalia" v. "Natasha" thing, which if I understand right she changed when she defected.  (Or did I just read that in a fic somewhere and now it's my headcanon?)

And as a follow-up, is there a good case to be made that the movie got it wrong by going with "ff" instead of "v"?  Or to put it simply, why deviate from movie!canon?

Comments

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

Correct Russian spelling of Natasha's surname would be Romanova because she's female. In Slavic languages, an a at the end of a surname always denominates a female wearer of the name. I think I remember having read that she uses Romanoff to mock the American inability to correctly spell her name :D

Natasha is a diminutive of Natalia. Like Little Natalia. If I remember it correctly, it's usually her street alias and she doesn't go very often by Natalia.

PS.: Nastyenka would be another diminutive. I'm sure she'd hate it :)

:D

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

So Romanov is also incorrect then? (though maybe less so?)

I kind of gathered from the film (or read into it) that she had adopted "Romanoff" but for what purpose I wasn't sure. I like the mockery idea; it sounds very her (I always tend to think of her as a snob in the best possible way.)

Thanks for sharing this, btw. Very cool to know.

[inkvoices]

From my understanding Natasha Romanoff and Natalia Romanova are just two of Black Widow's many aliases in the comics with 'Natasha' being a kind of nickname version of 'Natalia' in Russia or an Americanised/Anglicised 'Natalia' depending on your source. 'Romanova' would be her correct surname since she's female. I've read that she gets 'Romanoff' and 'Romanov' as a surname because Americans don't understand Russian or that she choses the male form of her name for various reasons. The film verse seems to be going with Romanoff, guess we get to play with that.

Historically the Romanov family was the last ruling family of Russia, executed by the Bolsheviks and from whence came the story/myth of 'Anastasia', the missing princess. Again, many interpretations of this are knocking around: that she is Anastasia, that she's a member of that family taken and turned into a weapon because it amused the one that took her or made a political point, that they gave her that family name for ditto reasons, that she chose that name for ditto reasons, and so on.

Marvel wiki lists Natalia "Natasha" Alianovna Romanova as her real name and her aliases as Natasha Romanoff, Nadine Roman, "Nat," Tsarina, Oktober, Laura Matthers, Nancy Rushman, Black Pearl, Natalia Shostakova, Natuska, Czarina, others; impersonated Yelena Belova.

In untangling this in my head, I think the whole mess speaks to her having no real identity or name, the whole constantly being remade thing. RED by waldorph has some interesting name thoughts and - damn, i've read too much fanfic, remind me where this is from if you remember - I loved the fic where Clint's nickname for her is Gnat. The film verse seems to have it as Romanoff, so since I'm really playing in the film verse i've been sticking with that. I don't have clear headcanon yet, but at the moment I'm going with her chosing 'Romanoff', because I have reclaiming on the brain.

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

damn, i've read too much fanfic, remind me where this is from if you remember - I loved the fic where Clint's nickname for her is Gnat.

Oooh ooh, *jumps up and down with hand in the air* I've read that one (and I haven't read much fanfic in this fandom yet, so it was easy to track down). That's Lifeline (http://sarea-okelani.livejournal.com/395867.html).

[inkvoices]

That's the one! WOOO, thanking you! :D I feel awful when I remember a story really clearly but can't actually remember where I saved the link. I have a serious need to organise my favouriting and bookmarking system, especially for the Avengers.

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

I feel awful when I remember a story really clearly but can't actually remember where I saved the link.

if it makes you feel any better, so many people have that same problem that there are LJ communities to help people find fics that they read and can't find again.

[inkvoices]

Heh, true :D

[sgteam14283.livejournal.com]

I"ve seen her last name spelled both ways as well and I think that it's mainly the Americanization of her name, although if spelled the "Russian" way it should be Romanova instead of Romanov since it's the feminine use of her last name.

As for her first name, I've only seen Natasha but when she's "undercover" uses Natalia.

I'm not picky when it comes to her name, since she's a spy and uses so many cover IDs but I can understand why it's a sticking point.

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

So Romanov is also incorrect then?

Yep. If you want to go Russian Russian, Romanova is the only way to go.

I like the mockery idea; it sounds very her

Doesn't it? :D I can see her, rolling her eyes at every wrong attempt at pronouncing her name and telling them "You can call me Natasha. Natasha Romanoff. I like to make it easy for people." and make one feel very embarassed by that :D

Thanks for sharing this, btw. Very cool to know.

You're welcome :) (it helps to be East German for matters like that. Also, my dad got his degree in mathematics from a university in Charkiv, Ukraine on a scholarship programm. That's very practical, too :D)

[ashen_key]

As far as I understand it -

Both Romanoff and Romanov are legitimate transliterations of the same last name from the Cyrillic, although I think "Romanoff" is a bit old-fashioned. If she were speaking in Russian/still being a Russian citizen, her name would be "Romanova". But in English, with non-Russian citizens, the "a" at the end tends to be dropped because in English the surnames don't tend to change depending on the gender.

In my headcanon, she uses the "Romanoff" spelling in English partly because she just likes it, partly to avoid the "are you related to the tzars" thing. The Natalya vs Natasha thing...

My headcanon is that "Natasha" is now her legal first name as far as SHIELD and her visa are concerned. Natasha, being the diminutive friends would have called her (her parents probably switched between "Natasha" and "Natashenka"), is who she is at the core of herself. Natalya Alianovna Romanova was an orphan girl who was taken and remade and played so many parts (one of those parts being the Natalya the Red Room made her into); "Natasha" is who she remained even as she was also being Nathalie, Natalia, Nadine, Sofia, etc.

[coneyislandbaby]

I love the Anastasia theory - though I guess for a modern reboot she'd have to be a descendant, though I guess there could be comics type explanations (even some kind of freezing like Steve) for her to be her.

Do you know of any fan fic that explores the idea of her being Anastasia?

[alwaysenduphere.livejournal.com]

The Anastasia theory just blew my mind a little bit, ngl. I've never heard that before but now it's totally a thing I want to exist.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I really like the Anastasia symbolism too. I know I've seen it referenced before but I'm not sure if I've seen it in fic. Very cool idea to play with though. :)

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I think the spy/alias thing totally makes sense. I do wonder which one she would choose if not for the misspelling stuff, but I don't know if there's any way to really know that (at least in the movieverse, because I don't think we were given enough information.)

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I very much approve of this headcanon! :D Goes beautifully with her whole re-claiming/re-making theme.

**takes headcanon home and adopts it**

[ashen_key]

Goes beautifully with her whole re-claiming/re-making theme.

Exactly! :D

And, heeee, yay.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

OMG your icon. **DIES**

Awesome. Hilariously, hilariously awesome.

[ashen_key]

It is possibly my favourite icon ever - I lost most of my icons over here when I let my paid account fade away (all my icons are now over on DW, which is annoying now I have a new shiny fandom, but ah well), but I'm so pleased LJ let me keep this one.

And it seemed appropriate *g*

[inkvoices]

You mean if she actually was Anastasia? Unless the Red Room just planted the suggestion that she was Anastasia or kind of made her into that as their own kind of joke... But yeah, otherwise she'd have to be a descendent.

Um. RED that I mentioned about says something about it, but can't think of any other off the top of my head... (This exists, right? I haven't just let this lose on the internet? Um, oops?)

[inkvoices]

Um, oops? ...wait, does this not already exist? *head desk* RED that I mentioned above has something about it. Can't think of any other fics off the top of my head.

[inkvoices]

Glad you've seen it referenced because I was starting to think I'd just pulled it out of thin air. Which, fun, but oops. ...I don't know if I know enough history to write something on this, but it's a curiosity, isn't it?

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I don't think I'd do straight-up historical if I was going to write it, b/c you couldn't do that without the comic voodoo on the age thing, and I guess you could go with the descendant route, but I kind of like it as symbolism too. Maybe a symbolism she chooses for herself after leaving the Red Room, as a symbol of what has been taken from her, but also a call back to the 'core' of who and what she is? Hmm, I dunno. Rambling here.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

It's seriously badass. I'm glad LJ spared it too. :)

[inkvoices]

No, I'd want to avoid comic voodoo (and that is such a great name for it, ha) because I do so love how her and Clint are the non-enhanced, 100% human and 100% talented people. Hmm, something about legacies and lost children...Anastasia's family executed and her left behind... I'm going to end up writing name fic at some point, aren't I? *grins* Watched Avengers for the second time today and paid so much attention to the names Natasha uses and is given by other people, especially Clint, seriously.

[alwaysenduphere.livejournal.com]

IDK if it exists other places, but I think it is a glorious theory and I shall subscribe to it. And read that fic, fo sho.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I think I'm all about the Anastasia symbolism here.

OMG the names. YES. (It's not like I've obsessively watched with this in mind or anything...)

[inkvoices]

Okay, correct if I'm wrong then, since you've seen it way more times than me, you lucky lady ;) but:
Coulson says, "Tasha, Barton's been compromised."
She introduces herself to Bruce as Natasha Romanoff.
Coulson says Agent Romanoff when she first shows up on the hellicarrier.
Clint calls her Tasha when he gets bonked over the head, then it's Tasha and one Natasha when they're in the infirmary, and then Nat the two times he addresses her over the comms during the big fight.

Am I missing any?

(Because seriously, I am having thoughts about names like woah.)

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Fury refers to her as Agent Romanoff when he asks her to show Banner to his lab.

Tony also calls her Agent Romanoff when he shows up in Germany.

When was the first 'Tasha' in the recovery scene? I don't remember that.

(And for some reason it's the whispered/breathed/like-a-prayer "Natasha" that he says to her in the recovery scene that just KILLS me. Srsly. **is ded**)

[inkvoices]

Must just be Natasha then in the infirmary. I wondered if i'd misheard that one. (There were more chatty people in my second viewing *sigh*.)

The direction my thoughts are going in: Clint calls her Nat when it's mission time, when they're with other people, because everyone else calls her Agent or by whatever aliase she's going by, because they don't know any better, but Clint has earned the familiarity of Nat. (I am also, thanks to the Lifelines fic, thinking that when she was younger it was actually Gnat, but now she's older it's Nat, except for the times he's teasing her and everyone else hears Nat, but Natasha knows that he means Gnat, she just knows.)

Then Clint and Coulson call her Tasha, when it counts, when it's important, when they need to get her attention, when they need her to listen. The fact that Coulon calls her this as well, I don't think Tasha is an entirely private Clint/Natasha thing, but rather a, well, a kind of team thing. That the three of them worked together so closely, shared a safehouse or space, lived inside each other pockets, and there are some things that you can't share without becoming on first name terms. But Tasha isn't her actual name, right? Nickname. Friendly. Inclusive. Telling her that she's more than Natasha, she's one of them.

But then we have Natasha in that infirmary scene, the one that breaks us, the one time that Clint actually calls her by her name. This is one of the things that makes me think she chose Natasha Romanoff herself and not just because it fits in with the reclaiming theme. I think, just maybe, when Clint uses Natasha it's rare and it means you, it means the person that you chose to be, it means serious and just them, no teasing, no one else around, not even Coulson, no team, just and only Natasha.

(Wow, today is a huge comment day for me it seems. Earlier I splurged in comments over here. Which, any thoughts on that too? *grins*)