be_compromised | Creative Support Group

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Creative Support Group - The Beta Edition

I’ve been on both sides of the writer-beta relationship and both come with lots of questions. I thought maybe we could have some discussion :)

> Finding a beta: always awkward. Do you leave a message on your own journal or on a community and hope that someone’s interested? Is it too cheeky to send someone a private message asking them? Is there beta etiquette?

(I noticed that a fair amount of people said on the Secret Santa post that they would be happy to beta. If there are people on the comm who beta, what would you think about maybe setting up a kind of beta directory for writers looking for betas?)

> Being a beta: has it’s own worries. How harsh do writers want you to be? How thorough? What kind of help are they looking for? What kind of help do betas offer?

> Keeping a beta: is there an etiquette on how many times you can ask someone to look over the same fic? Is there etiquette for how long a beta can take to look it over? Can you have more than one beta at a time? If one beta says one thing and the other something different what do you do? Do you introduce them to each other? If you need a beta again in the future do you have to start all over again or can you email the same beta and ask, ‘um, remember me?’

I’m guessing a lot of this is personal and that there are a lot of different views, and that I’ve missed a lot of questions, so bring on the discussion! And if you’re looking for a beta this could be a good place to start :)

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I go through a guilt spiral every time I beta. Does anyone else? All these Who am I to say this needs to be changed? What do I know? feelings well up and then I have to work it out before I can even begin to get out the red pencil. Which is just silly because I get so tired of betas who don't help at all! I had a friend one who would only check for my spelling... which is why I use spell-check! I could never even get her to give me her feelings on the piece. So why use her at all? But then there's the fear that you'll break the writer and how horrible would that be?

Do you introduce them to each other? This question cracked me up... only because I'm horrible at having two betas at a time. I can imagine making them dinner before sitting down and having the dreaded chat. "So, I like you both and you both have really different strengths so, how 'bout we all be friends?"

And also, I seem to be from a time where there were different writing rules. For instance, I use two spaces after the full stop/period and that has been changed in the last few years. I can't break the habit. There are others that I've seemed to notice, too. Have comma usages gotten more lax since I was in school? Are they teaching how to format for computers as opposed to just always formatting for print media? There are just some thing that I'm going to beta wrong because I'm twenty years out of the loop.

YES. I say things like 'I think that' and 'I'm treating this as if I'm editing my own work' and 'this is only my viewpoint'. Then I feel like I'm making excuses, like 'don't blame me if other people think it's wrong' *head desk*.

Haha, that is a cracking mental image :D

Wait, what, when did this change?! I always use two spaces after a full stop. If internet/computer formatting automatically changes it to one space I don't like it bother me, but two spaces is automatic for me. Is one space a rule now or just a formatting issue? Heh, people all seem to have different comma rules. I go with correcting a fic so that it fits my own comma rules and so that it makes sense, then if an author wants to argue with me about commas I'll let them put them back in or take them back out if their arguement is good. ...Commas By Debate is probably not the grammatically correct approach.

I try to make a clear delineation when I beta. Some people just want grammar and spelling and...usage for lack of a better word. And then, some really want a cheerleader and I can do that, but I have to *know* you want that. And I do try and match up with someone who has a similar style. I'm not great with huge descriptive passages.

I had a beta, earlier in the year, who I just didn't mesh with at all because she thought I was 'leaving out' huge chunks of story and it was really that I just hadn't gotten there yet. She wasn't a bad beta, she just wanted me to tell the story in her way and...I didn't.

And yeah, there's always that fear of breaking another writer. But we all have that terrifying feeling just before we open the edit, that it was awful and can't be fixed. So, I think most of us guard against that.

I prefer to know my betas - as in, I'll, usually ask someone I feel comfortable with (at least) talking over different issues. I don't feel very comfortable with betas I don't even know, because of one really horrible beta experience from the early days of fandom. I asked someone who was a good writer to beta read for me. Sure, my character voices weren't really the best, I am well aware of that - but I don't think I was quality - less writer even then. Sadly I'll never forget what she did - she sent me four pages long e mail dissecting every line I wrote, reasoning why I was wrong, why my fic was horrible, and her tone was... incredibly rude. Yuck, hell. So now? I prefer to know a person first, know what we might disagree on before he/she starts to beta read for me. I don't mind being told things like, okay, this isn't working. But for God's sake, politeness. It's really classy! (as for the beta from hell, I never read any of her fics again.)

When I beta read I try to do what I want people to do for me - yes, tell me when something doesn't work, but do it in a way that's not insulting (at least *try* to be polite and constructive). I always write some kind of preface saying, "look this is how I see things, it's my opinion, you can take what you like, or you can ignore it". I usually beta read for characterization (after the beta from hell experience, it took me... uh quite some courage to offer people to beta read for them, because it first took believing that I can, actually, do a good job myself). I try to be gentle and polite, always polite, if its someone I don't know very well. (If it's a good friend then I can do things like AND WHAT HAPPENS NAO OMG!!!) :P

About betas with different views - I usually pick the one I feel more comfortable with. As for etiquette.... IDK? I usually know how it works when friends beta read. Or, we define how it's going to go even before I send a fic. I tend to take a relaxed approach - I do like my fics to be good, but I gave up on "perfect" - whatever that means. It's a different thing for everyone. I work on something until it "clicks" for me. Longer things, things I write for exchanges, or for someone else, I tend to work on them harder. But after a really hard and long period of being completely disheartened about my own writing (really, it's AWFUL when someone you look up to, as a fellow writer, gives you such.... horrible feedback); I kind of decided to take a semi selfish approach to the whole thing. Writing should make *me* happy, that comes first. I shouldn't think what this or that person would or wouldn't think or say. That, of course doesn't mean I should write crap. No, I'm constantly trying to improve my own work.

Edited 2012-10-15 17:27 (UTC)

Ohhhhhhh! Please, please, please make me a Commas By Debate icon!!!!!!!!! Not only should it be the name of a geeky alternative college band but it feels like my life! I seem to be such a stickler about commas that I correct bound books. Like ACTUALLY correct them. With a pen.

I used to want to know my betas until I didn't have any in the fandom that I was writing in and a lot of my early betas dropped out of online to get lives. That was a long couple of years before I got back into the groove of knowing my beta. Its very, very scary to ask someone to watch over your "baby" for you.

Totally agree! It is all about being polite. I always ask "Does that make sense?", or "I would use this word or expression instead of what you used there, but that is only my opinion..." :) And I don't only beta fanfic, I have to do this professionally as well. My colleague publishes our company's newsletter and I always get tasked with betaing that ;) I only suggest changes storywise if there is a snag at some point and I don't understand where it is going. Then I would ask questions, as usually that way the author can work out what she is trying to convey. That usually works for me. And I always ask beforehand what the writer is actually looking for betawise, just grammar or plot and characterisation as well.

There is however always that feeling of dread, once I send of my revision, if it is well received on the other end or if there is something the author didn't like, is it the same for you? I'm like sitting on hot coals until I receive the reply :)

Just replying for the spaces here, it is only one after a full stop, has been ever since I took a typing class in school in the late 90s :) But that is also one of the biggest issues of my colleague who is 18 years my senior, she frequently uses two, it drives me nuts ;) But the commas issue, that is not really an issue, I take the same approach, commas are up for debate.

Usually, I just post a note on my own lj asking if anyone would like to read for me -- I have several go-to betas who always make time for me, but we're in diverging fandoms now and I hate to take up a ton of their time on characters they don't know. I also try to be really clear about what I'm looking for -- am I getting bogged down with the plot, are my characters not feeling right, do I just need know somebody is waiting to read the next thousand words so I have some kind of motivation to keep going (less a beta than a cheerleader who will give me that all important WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, OMG?!!), or am I in the aieeeee-my-big-bang-posting-date-is-in-three-days stage of panic … that kind of thing. I generally don't ask for a copy-edit (grammar and spelling) until I've gotten everything else hammered out because it's distracting for me to deal with wording changes when I'm flailing around trying to find the characters. I also have a beta who I trust implicitly for that kind of thing, so I don't even bother discussing it (unless it's something that goes with the character, in which case I'll make the final call.)

When I'm actually betaing, I try to be really clear about my own strengths and weaknesses (you really don't want me for grammar ANYTHING. I'm your characterization and your plot arc woman.) I try to point out things that work especially well for me, and then pinpoint things that are confusing or missing. I tend to leave tone alone, as that's the author's voice and how I write is not how you write, etc. I look for head-hopping / POV issues or awkwardly-phrased passages or dialog that really doesn't sound like the character (as these are the things I appreciate hearing from a beta.) I'll say if I'm losing my focus as I read (which can be just me, but if others are mentioning the same thing, it can be a pacing flag.) I generally don't offer fixes, unless we move to a back-and-forth discussion over IM where we're brainstorming ideas and that is totally at the author's discretion. At that point, I'm the sounding board and it's a give-and-take rather than a mark-up.

And it always helps to thank your beta immediately & then put the comments away for a day! Perspective! :D

Geeky alternative college band, haha, YES :D

How are these:

I'll fall back on Strunk and White if I'm unsure, but my main criteria are readability and effect - does it make sense and does it read the way you wanted, or have the emphasis that you wanted. I don't care if someone I'm beta-ing for disagrees with my comma corrections as long as they have a reason and can defend it. Democratic grammar for the win.

Yeah, I wasn't aware of that change either. And I've had English classes in the last decade. But the comma thing, lol, I apparently came up in a time when commas were being used sparingly and now they're expected a lot more. Most of my betas have to bash me over the head to remind me.

God, YES. It's really scary and I'm careful about asking new people to beta read for me. I'm careful about whom I ask. Stories are definitely like our babies. :)

I've been dredging my brain trying to figure out why I think that it's too spaces and the only thing I can come up with is that when I learnt to write, as in handwritten writing, we were taught to leave a bigger gap after the full stop than between words. Maybe that's where I've carried it on from? It's how I've always typed academic work and office work things as well though. Bah.

I only suggest changes storywise if there is a snag at some point and I don't understand where it is going. I've been known to comment, repeatedly, 'but what are you trying to say?' *grins*

There is however always that feeling of dread, once I send of my revision, if it is well received on the other end or if there is something the author didn't like, is it the same for you?

Yes! I'm a thorough kind of beta in that I comment all over everything I've sent on what I liked, what I loved, what might be made better, everything, so I sit there hoping that at least some of it is useful and that the poor writer doesn't just take one look at the huge pile of comments and think that I didn't like the story at all. These days I end put in the email/message accompanying altered files saying that I liked it and warning them that I comment a lot if I haven't beta read for them before so that I don't send them into shock :S

How did you deal with not meshing with your beta? I don't know what I'd do. Maybe thank them politely for their help, put the story to one side for long enough that hopefully they'll forget about it, then find another beta and then post it :/

What do you mean by guarding against it?

I make sure that I comment on all the things that I like and love in a fic when I'm beta reading, just as I would if I was normally reading a posted fic, so that it's not all negatives or suggested changes and because I think it's just as useful to know what works as it is to know what doesn't :)

The first stories that I had a beta reader for were in the Harry Potter fandom, which has/had a fantastic resource called Perfect Imagination, which was a beta service. You said how long your story was, the rating, the pairings, a summary etc. plus what you were looking for in a beta and you got a list of betas in the order of how busy they were with other fics. Then you contacted a few until one took you on. I didn't know anyone who beta read for me and I rarely had the same beta twice. Some were more helpful than others, but they were all very nice. It was rather a long process though and I can be impatient once I feel done with a fic, so I moved to only using a beta when I was writing a gift or for an exchange.

In other fandoms I've asked on my own LJ for a beta, but I always feel a bit awkward about it, because do you accept on a first come, first served basis or who you think will suit you best or take them all or what? And that's if anyone is even interested in beta reading. When I wrote a fic for the epic Small Acts verse I figured since it was

workerbee73 and

bob5fic's baby that I'd ask them to beta *grins* but I have awkwardness just outright asking people otherwise.

Which is odd, because as I beta I don't mind if people PM me or outright ask me if I'll beta read for them. I'm flattered that they've asked :) My standard disclaimers for being a beta reader is that I'm thorough, as in I comment on all kinds of things worse than when I comment on posted fics, and that because of that if it's anything over 500 words I also make no promises as to how speedy I'll be. If they want a basic going over I can be faster.

I like to get a dialogue going with writers as well, to debate changes and look over their fic more than once. When I've had a beta reader myself most of them have been suprised if I've asked them to do a second read through.

And what do people think about creating a beta directory? I was thinking of a post where people would reply with their beta style, how they prefer to be contacted, what they're willing to do, and then people wanting a beta on the comm would know that those people were willing to be asked to beta.

Woohoo, that does help, glad I'm not the only one to do that *grins* I do think it helps the writer to find a way around a glitch in the story, without saying "I would write it this and that way". It is not the beta's story after all, you don't want to change the author's voice, right?

The end note in the accompanying email is genius :D No overwhelmed authors, I imagine :)

That sound like a reasonable enough explanation. I don't think most people would mind, I am just a little OCD with spaces and grammar and such *grins*

Exactly, phew. Sometimes, especially if it's an idea that strikes a match inside your head, I get caught drawing the line between making the story the best that it can be and writing it myself. To avoid that, I'll ask what an author is trying to say and make suggestions as to how they could rephrase or change things if they were going in a few different directions, trying not to assume one direction/meaning.

Heh, I'll look at all the comments I've made, filling my screen, and be all, 'um, ooops? Sorry!'

I think that if someone asks for a beta, however bad their writing is it shows that they want to improve and knocking their confidence, rude or not, is a huge no *frowny face*. My first betas (as I've said below) were actually from a beta service and you could pick the type of beta that you wanted - one part of which was something like (I forget the exact wording): gentle, fair, or strict. I started with gentle and it was actually too gentle for me, so I took a deep breath and went with strict next time. I got a no-nonsense beta, sure, but they were polite, they weren't insulting, just pointed out what they felt was wrong, and I didn't feel like I'd been told I was rubbish or anything, just that I needed to improve, which is what I wanted to do.

Also, I don't think just because someone is a good writer it means that they're a good beta reader. Picking a beta I think is a bit of a shot in the dark, because we can read people's writing but we can't see what people's beta reading is like.

I think that is a terrific idea :) And I want to be on that list *grins*

Edited 2012-10-15 19:19 (UTC)

YES TO THIS. YES. Also, I want to be on that list *G*

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Creative Support Group - The Beta Edition

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Here goes a confession abotu really horrible beta experiences.

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