I go through a guilt spiral every time I beta. Does anyone else? All these Who am I to say this needs to be changed? What do I know? feelings well up and then I have to work it out before I can even begin to get out the red pencil. Which is just silly because I get so tired of betas who don't help at all! I had a friend one who would only check for my spelling... which is why I use spell-check! I could never even get her to give me her feelings on the piece. So why use her at all? But then there's the fear that you'll break the writer and how horrible would that be?

Do you introduce them to each other? This question cracked me up... only because I'm horrible at having two betas at a time. I can imagine making them dinner before sitting down and having the dreaded chat. "So, I like you both and you both have really different strengths so, how 'bout we all be friends?"

YES. I say things like 'I think that' and 'I'm treating this as if I'm editing my own work' and 'this is only my viewpoint'. Then I feel like I'm making excuses, like 'don't blame me if other people think it's wrong' *head desk*.

Haha, that is a cracking mental image :D

You shouldn't feel guilty! Without you my irrational dislike of commas would have made my storygolikethis. :P

And also, I seem to be from a time where there were different writing rules. For instance, I use two spaces after the full stop/period and that has been changed in the last few years. I can't break the habit. There are others that I've seemed to notice, too. Have comma usages gotten more lax since I was in school? Are they teaching how to format for computers as opposed to just always formatting for print media? There are just some thing that I'm going to beta wrong because I'm twenty years out of the loop.

Wait, what, when did this change?! I always use two spaces after a full stop. If internet/computer formatting automatically changes it to one space I don't like it bother me, but two spaces is automatic for me. Is one space a rule now or just a formatting issue? Heh, people all seem to have different comma rules. I go with correcting a fic so that it fits my own comma rules and so that it makes sense, then if an author wants to argue with me about commas I'll let them put them back in or take them back out if their arguement is good. ...Commas By Debate is probably not the grammatically correct approach.

I try to make a clear delineation when I beta. Some people just want grammar and spelling and...usage for lack of a better word. And then, some really want a cheerleader and I can do that, but I have to *know* you want that. And I do try and match up with someone who has a similar style. I'm not great with huge descriptive passages.

I had a beta, earlier in the year, who I just didn't mesh with at all because she thought I was 'leaving out' huge chunks of story and it was really that I just hadn't gotten there yet. She wasn't a bad beta, she just wanted me to tell the story in her way and...I didn't.

And yeah, there's always that fear of breaking another writer. But we all have that terrifying feeling just before we open the edit, that it was awful and can't be fixed. So, I think most of us guard against that.

How did you deal with not meshing with your beta? I don't know what I'd do. Maybe thank them politely for their help, put the story to one side for long enough that hopefully they'll forget about it, then find another beta and then post it :/

What do you mean by guarding against it?

I make sure that I comment on all the things that I like and love in a fic when I'm beta reading, just as I would if I was normally reading a posted fic, so that it's not all negatives or suggested changes and because I think it's just as useful to know what works as it is to know what doesn't :)

That is such a tenuous line - as a beta, am I being fair to the writer's voice? Am I trying to put anything of myself in it?

Yes, I will try to say what I like about a story or mention what I don't understand it what isn't clear. It's not my story to tell so I try never to critique on plot or characterization. That is too much like stepping on toes for me.

I prefer to know my betas - as in, I'll, usually ask someone I feel comfortable with (at least) talking over different issues. I don't feel very comfortable with betas I don't even know, because of one really horrible beta experience from the early days of fandom. I asked someone who was a good writer to beta read for me. Sure, my character voices weren't really the best, I am well aware of that - but I don't think I was quality - less writer even then. Sadly I'll never forget what she did - she sent me four pages long e mail dissecting every line I wrote, reasoning why I was wrong, why my fic was horrible, and her tone was... incredibly rude. Yuck, hell. So now? I prefer to know a person first, know what we might disagree on before he/she starts to beta read for me. I don't mind being told things like, okay, this isn't working. But for God's sake, politeness. It's really classy! (as for the beta from hell, I never read any of her fics again.)

When I beta read I try to do what I want people to do for me - yes, tell me when something doesn't work, but do it in a way that's not insulting (at least *try* to be polite and constructive). I always write some kind of preface saying, "look this is how I see things, it's my opinion, you can take what you like, or you can ignore it". I usually beta read for characterization (after the beta from hell experience, it took me... uh quite some courage to offer people to beta read for them, because it first took believing that I can, actually, do a good job myself). I try to be gentle and polite, always polite, if its someone I don't know very well. (If it's a good friend then I can do things like AND WHAT HAPPENS NAO OMG!!!) :P

About betas with different views - I usually pick the one I feel more comfortable with. As for etiquette.... IDK? I usually know how it works when friends beta read. Or, we define how it's going to go even before I send a fic. I tend to take a relaxed approach - I do like my fics to be good, but I gave up on "perfect" - whatever that means. It's a different thing for everyone. I work on something until it "clicks" for me. Longer things, things I write for exchanges, or for someone else, I tend to work on them harder. But after a really hard and long period of being completely disheartened about my own writing (really, it's AWFUL when someone you look up to, as a fellow writer, gives you such.... horrible feedback); I kind of decided to take a semi selfish approach to the whole thing. Writing should make *me* happy, that comes first. I shouldn't think what this or that person would or wouldn't think or say. That, of course doesn't mean I should write crap. No, I'm constantly trying to improve my own work.

Edited 2012-10-15 05:27 pm (UTC)

I used to want to know my betas until I didn't have any in the fandom that I was writing in and a lot of my early betas dropped out of online to get lives. That was a long couple of years before I got back into the groove of knowing my beta. Its very, very scary to ask someone to watch over your "baby" for you.

Usually, I just post a note on my own lj asking if anyone would like to read for me -- I have several go-to betas who always make time for me, but we're in diverging fandoms now and I hate to take up a ton of their time on characters they don't know. I also try to be really clear about what I'm looking for -- am I getting bogged down with the plot, are my characters not feeling right, do I just need know somebody is waiting to read the next thousand words so I have some kind of motivation to keep going (less a beta than a cheerleader who will give me that all important WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, OMG?!!), or am I in the aieeeee-my-big-bang-posting-date-is-in-three-days stage of panic … that kind of thing. I generally don't ask for a copy-edit (grammar and spelling) until I've gotten everything else hammered out because it's distracting for me to deal with wording changes when I'm flailing around trying to find the characters. I also have a beta who I trust implicitly for that kind of thing, so I don't even bother discussing it (unless it's something that goes with the character, in which case I'll make the final call.)
 
When I'm actually betaing, I try to be really clear about my own strengths and weaknesses (you really don't want me for grammar ANYTHING. I'm your characterization and your plot arc woman.) I try to point out things that work especially well for me, and then pinpoint things that are confusing or missing. I tend to leave tone alone, as that's the author's voice and how I write is not how you write, etc. I look for head-hopping / POV issues or awkwardly-phrased passages or dialog that really doesn't sound like the character (as these are the things I appreciate hearing from a beta.) I'll say if I'm losing my focus as I read (which can be just me, but if others are mentioning the same thing, it can be a pacing flag.) I generally don't offer fixes, unless we move to a back-and-forth discussion over IM where we're brainstorming ideas and that is totally at the author's discretion. At that point, I'm the sounding board and it's a give-and-take rather than a mark-up.

And it always helps to thank your beta immediately & then put the comments away for a day! Perspective! :D

The first stories that I had a beta reader for were in the Harry Potter fandom, which has/had a fantastic resource called Perfect Imagination, which was a beta service. You said how long your story was, the rating, the pairings, a summary etc. plus what you were looking for in a beta and you got a list of betas in the order of how busy they were with other fics. Then you contacted a few until one took you on. I didn't know anyone who beta read for me and I rarely had the same beta twice. Some were more helpful than others, but they were all very nice. It was rather a long process though and I can be impatient once I feel done with a fic, so I moved to only using a beta when I was writing a gift or for an exchange.

In other fandoms I've asked on my own LJ for a beta, but I always feel a bit awkward about it, because do you accept on a first come, first served basis or who you think will suit you best or take them all or what? And that's if anyone is even interested in beta reading. When I wrote a fic for the epic Small Acts verse I figured since it was workerbee73 and bob5fic's baby that I'd ask them to beta *grins* but I have awkwardness just outright asking people otherwise.

Which is odd, because as I beta I don't mind if people PM me or outright ask me if I'll beta read for them. I'm flattered that they've asked :) My standard disclaimers for being a beta reader is that I'm thorough, as in I comment on all kinds of things worse than when I comment on posted fics, and that because of that if it's anything over 500 words I also make no promises as to how speedy I'll be. If they want a basic going over I can be faster.

I like to get a dialogue going with writers as well, to debate changes and look over their fic more than once. When I've had a beta reader myself most of them have been suprised if I've asked them to do a second read through.

I'm the same way! I'm scared to death to ask anyone to beta my stuff but then I turn around and can't figure out why people don't ask for betas more often! :) It's two different parts of the ego, I think, and they don't appear to talk.

And what do people think about creating a beta directory? I was thinking of a post where people would reply with their beta style, how they prefer to be contacted, what they're willing to do, and then people wanting a beta on the comm would know that those people were willing to be asked to beta.

I think that is a terrific idea :) And I want to be on that list *grins*

Edited 2012-10-15 07:19 pm (UTC)

English is my third language- let me put this way. I never have a beta why because I find too weird to ask a stranger and no one I know speaks English as well as me.

Insert irony here.

For the record, I would kill for one (a beta that is) because I know my English is iffy but finding someone to help me seems to be impossible. I've only had 1 offer before way back in the day. The girls idea of a beta-- well I could have done that myself.

I need someone that understands really grammatical and spelling because sometimes when I want to use big words- I know them but can't figure out how to spell them right because in my language they would be said so differently (and spelled of course for that matter) that figuring out the intended letters tend to get tricky.

--

As for when I've betaed- I always make the same standard statement. I can do basic spelling and grammar in English. I can beta plot- characters- knowledge (because I'm a trivia loser) and a refuse to do any hardcore grammar checks.

I have done it before, it's mostly to clean check everything but it tends to work out well. I give feedback, it helps them... and I don't feel like a failure.

I'm in awe of anyone that can write well enough in another language - let alone a third! - to be able to create stories, so don't ever feel like a failure *hugs*. I know what you mean about asking strangers. It just feels akward. That's why I use beta services or beta lists when they're available, because then I know that those people are volunteering and you can find someone specific to what you're after, like grammar and spelling. If we do the beta directory, which is getting chatted about in this post, would that help?

I think feedback is always good :)

To answer another question that popped out at me, I think it's the highest honor to get asked to beta for someone again. It means that we had a connection and I did something right. I'm trying to be much better about declining if I'm too busy (although I've been lucky and haven't had to do much of that lately because I didn't join any of the big bangs) so as not to get too behind on anything but it's always wonderful to be asked!

For me I think this is the same problem as above - I'm happy to be asked more than once, and more directly, but when it comes to asking I'm more shy.

First of all, I wish everyone would use a beta. There's nothing worse than a fic with an interesting summary and the author's note saying something like "Sorry for all the mistakes, but I just finished this and had to post it straight away." Usually those stories contain at least one typo in every second sentence. English being my second language, I probably don't find every mistake in spelling or grammar (heck, I make quite a few myself), but if it's too many for me the story is unreadable even if the general idea would make for an awesome story. The least you could do is use a spell-check! To me it's a sign of respect toward my readers that I try to minimize mistakes in spelling and grammar. You might not even catch them all, but you can at least make an effort.

English being my second language spell-checks usually don't do it for my own stories. I know that my English is good, but if I have to look up a word in a dictionary I might simply use the wrong one. Maybe a different choice of words would be better for what I want to say. Also while writing I sometimes type the wrong word when it comes to similar sounding ones (for example, "there" and "their" or "then" and "than"). A simple spell-check doesn't find those mistakes.
To find a beta I either post on my journal or in a community asking if someone would beta ready for me. Or I ask someone directly. It usually depends on my mood and on how quickly I need something beta read.

Since I'm not a native speaker myself I usually don't beta English stories. However I have beta read before (in English and German). I proofread my roommates essays for university for years and thus have become quite good at ignoring things which I would say differently simply because it's my style of writing. If I think something should be changed none the less I try to give suggestions and an explanation, for example, "I would rather use ... instead of ..., because ...". Personally I don’t care for changes which were made to something I wrote and which I don’t understand. I can only improve my English if I understand why a choice of words was wrong.
When betaing I sometimes use different colors as well. Red usually means that something is wrong and thus needs to be changed while blue is only a suggestion. If I use coloring I explain it in the e-mail accompanying the beta read story so people can choose right away if the only want to correct what's wrong and can freely ignore any other suggestions if they like to.
The most important thing for a beta however is to be polite. There's always a nice way to say "You story is crap". ;)

I couldn't agree more! With all you just said!

There are so many interesting stories out there that are just utterly unreadable due to all the mistakes, it is such a shame. It just gets so distracting that I can't continue. And most of the time it is the homonyms that cause these problems and they are, as you point out so well, not picked up by any spellcheck.

And although English is also only my second language (I'm German too), I am unfortunately very good at spotting them and am kinda OCD about them *grins*

Now I feel guilty about my betaing. Ever since I was a kid my dad and my sister have proofread my stuff and been pretty harsh, so I bring the same mentality to my betaing. I guess I forget that people can be hurt by criticism. :-/

I always feel awkward when asking for a beta, so I typically only ask on fic longer than a thousand words. I should probably ask more! (Usually my sister betas for me, but she ran away from the Avengers fandom after silly fandom classlessness.)

The beta directory idea is awesome. It would be cool to have it all laid out and definitely reduce the awkwardness. :)

I think there's a difference between criticism - 'this is wrong' - and constructive criticism - 'this is wrong, but you could fix it/improve it by...' And some people are good with harsh :) One of my first beta's was too gentle with me. Sometimes you need someone to give you a kick in the behind. The problem, as people have been saying above, is when beta's over-ride a writer's story or are just plain rude. Which I'm sure you're not :)

Reducing Awkwardness! Yes :D

I really want a beta who will engage with my work. Someone who reads not only for grammar and spelling and the like, but pacing and characterization, and call me out if they think I'm doing something that could be improved. I love people who leave notes in the text as they go, to let me know what's up.

I always feel guilty asking someone to beta, especially a second time, because it does take time, and I don't want to put them in the position of saying no.

Edited 2012-10-16 12:48 am (UTC)

Yes to this!! I got lucky and my best friend and I BOTH like the same kind of betaing. We'll be rough on each other, but we're looking for these kinds of things so we'll have critique mixed in with flail which really is a blast. It makes us want to read their edits lol.

When I beta I tend to be half beta and half hyperactive cheerleader. I give suggestions on grammar and spelling when I see it, and plot/character advice when the writer asks me for my opinion. I also brainstorm with writers if they want (I love doing that with my own work. I'll email people going "I NEED HELP, LET ME TALK THIS OUT.").

A lot of the time my comments will consist of "OMG THIS IS AWESOME," hence the hyperactive cheerleader. I've beta'd some fics that had me squeaking with joy.

Hyperactive cheerleader. Bwahahahaha :D

...that is all <3

Why was this post so timely? Just as I put out a call for beta help haha.
I'm not generally involved in any specific fandom enough to...connect with anyone, I guess? So I don't even know who to ask. And it's hard because fics are really personal and I'm asking someone I don't know to give me honest feedback.

And what if my beta doesn't like my story? Can they still beta effectively if subjectively my fic doesn't do anything for them? I have no idea.

I've done beta work in fandoms I know nothing about! It's sort of the same thing. As a beta, you have to learn to be objective. It's not about "Do I like this story?" so much as it should be "Is this a well-crafted sentence and does it fit with the sentence before this one?" and that is where the fine line comes from. It is easier to give honest feedback when you know the person better but it is possible to give feedback even if you've never met the person or read anything from them before. Good feedback should always be motivated by the writing and not on likes or dislikes.

when getting stuff betaed, I have had both awesome experiences (with my best friend who actually I met when she offered to cheerlead/beta a fic years ago) and then awful experiences (the 'friend' who blew off my novel for 5 months and then got it back to me 1 week prior to a submission date).

It's gone the same way when I'm betaing - I've gotten the oppurtunities were it's like I'm getting the sneak peek of OMGAWESOMEFIC and I'm thrilled when they say I was a big help... and then on the other hand, I've gotten the kind where they throw 30k at me and it hasn't even been spellchecked and frankly is just awful. I spend hours and hours to beta it and do my damnedest to be kind and encouraging while I do it, and then don't even get a freaking thank you and instead get a 2nd draft to do a "quick check" of 5 hours before deadline (can you tell I'm a little bitter about this one?)

That last is actually the reason I STOPPED offering to beta openly at comms/big bangs. It's easy to get taken advantage of as a beta or as a writer, and it's hard to know when/how to say something is out of hand.

I mean, I would love to offer to more people as I do enjoy it, but it's a lot of work, and it sucks when it's just stomped all over, ya know?

Ugh, I had a terrible experiance writing for a Big Bang once, where I gave my Beta an almost complete draft and asked for grammar/spelling and just got squee back. I had to get someone else to look it over. I was so frustrated.

I don't have any official relationship with betas, although kind people from time to time have looked over my stories. anuna_81 is probably the closest thing to a beta I've had, providing a listening ear and somebody to bounce ideas off of. I write slowly, and infrequently, and usually am a boring lurker on the edges of fandom, so I don't seem to become part of the community. Thus, I feel weird about asking people to read my stuff.

I edit constantly while I write (and sometimes after a story is up), I think I do ok with things like typos. My big issues are plotting. I'll come up with a few pages of decent stuff but have no idea where to take it. (Thus, my flailing at [Unknown site tag] earlier about my Firefly crossover.) I wouldn't mind someone to point out all my damned comma splices, or the fact that I use adverbs like I'm spraying a fire hose, or return to the same well for phrases or situations, but mostly I just need somebody to tell me how writing works.

We embrace lurkers here :D

I get twitchy about editing once I've posted a story. I think it's because I like to look back and see that I've improved maybe.

Thanks for posting this because it's been interesting reading all of the different comments. I've been writing fanfiction for years now but only one of my stories has ever been truly beta'd. I tend to go without them, not out of pride, but not knowing anything different. I read through my stories multiple times, combing them for mistakes, but without failure things slip through. I know that. But, in all of my fandoms, I've always been kind of a lurker and I have no idea how to go about obtaining a beta, what is the proper etiquette once obtaining one, and where to go from there. It's nice to know what others' experiences are and kind of what to expect.

It really has! I'd hoped for some good dicussion and I know that this bar never disappoints on that front, but I'm still rather wow at it :D I've not used beta readers much either, partly because of being in lots of fandoms and not knowing how to go about finding one. When I have used one it's been a positive experience though, which doesn't always seem to be the case unfortunately. But then that's why I like these discussions - I get to learn a lot!

This thread is fascinating to me - I've often thought about volunteering to beta, but been uncertain as to what an author is looking for. (Especially since I'm not a writer myself!) Judging just from this thread, it seems that there are authors who are just looking for SPAG/vocabulary help, people seeking plot/characterization guides, and those who want a more collaborative/cheerleading experience. Wow.

That's a pretty broad spectrum! A beta directory sounds like an awesome idea to me. Prospective betas could list their strengths, weaknesses and styles along with contact info and authors could look for someone who would match their preferred approach. Maybe each beta could run through a certain standard passage of text with their changes or annotations attached, so the authors could get a sense of what each is capable of/willing to do? Like an audition - or is that a silly idea?

Speaking for myself as a beta, I'm not much on trying to edit someone else's process or style - I just want to make fic read more smoothly! So I won't try to wrangle plot or characterization, except in extreme cases of wtf?. It all boils down to readability. I'm good for things like spelling, vocabulary, fixing those pesky homonyms (the ones that throw me out of a story every time: there/their/they're, et al.), adjusting verb tenses, finding useful euphemisms for 'he said', making sure that when 'she reached around her and grabbed the bag she'd stashed' everyone is clear on who did what (and that two people were involved), and I'm resonably competent at "Ameri-picking" after years in Supernatural fandom where British/European vs. U.S. idiosyncrasies really stand out.

I'll only offer a personal opinion on a piece if specifically asked. I guess, because I'm not an author, I don't really feel secure in steering a fic along a particular plotted course, although I am pretty good at coming up with answers to 'what if's. My basic premise is that an author knows what she is trying to do, the effect she's going for - so my job is to aid that vision and try to eliminate any technical mistakes that may detract from the overall work. ;) So I guess I'd be on the 'Natasha's raised eyebrow' level of beta-ing?

I definitely agree that manners and constructive criticism are key - no one should harsh on an author's hard work! It's always amazed me that fanfic is free. Free! And readily available in the way that most other more regulated drugs aren't (yes, I equate good fic with drugs - an addiction is an addiction *sly wink*) And we should be respectful and supportive of our suppliers! To my mind, a beta is just someone who wants a fic to be the best it can be, so that readers can have the best, most authentic experience of an author's work.

It's weird to come at the discussion from this side, when almost everyone else commenting is an author - do you guys think that only those who write (and therefore understand all the problems and issues that writers face) should beta?

~ do you guys think that only those who write (and therefore understand all the problems and issues that writers face) should beta? ~

I actually think that a more objective approach can be useful. And just because someone is not as imaginative or articulate as someone who writes, that doesn't mean they don't have a good grasp of story structure, and for a beta that I think that, it's that which is most essential (along with knowing your grammar and syntax). So no I don't think only writers should beta.





Edited 2012-10-17 07:23 am (UTC)

I think a beta directory could be useful.

Maybe if the Beta volunteers don't mind, they can also add a little info about what's their style as Betas (do they do grammar and beautifying or just story? Or both? How harsh they are. How many stories they can handle etc).
Then the writers can approach them via PM.

Check! I am gathering all of the beta directory ideas and they are going in! Thanking you :)

In the same vain as a beta reader, are people open to someone who would check over the science and/or tech in their stories? I know there can be a lot of hand-waving over some things and often that's OK because the story is taking place in a fantastical, made up universe with its own logic. It's just when that logic is presented to be synonymous with our own, when it's not, that can throw someone out of a good read. In particular I know I have trouble staying engaged with a story if DNA tests are done too quickly, or if the flow of energy or electricity is explained incorrectly without providing an in-'verse reason for the difference.It doesn't have to be just science based either, it could be history or culture stuff.

As a side to the beta reader directory, people could also offer up their technical knowledge on specific topics.

I know this sort of thing isn't for everyone, or even necessary, and can completely muck up the foundation for some fic, but I thought I should put it out there.

Thoughts?

I think it's interesting. There's certainly some fic ideas I've had where I've started researching them, but not felt confident in knowing enough about a topic heavily involved in the plot or an era of history to be able to write it. I've read the journals of some people who have nursing or medical experience who've shone a light on some things I've had questions on for fics and it's really very useful. Yep, I'll add this to the beta directory - thanking you :D