All Things Friday: power and trust

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

So, I'll try to be as coherent as possible with this Friday's discussion - intro.

It's really amazing how "less is more" sometimes proves to be true. I've watched The Avengers at least ten times over the last few months and among several strong impressions the movie leaves me with each and every time, my favorite is the sense of connection between Hawkeye and Black Widow, aka, Natasha and Clint. Even though we don't see them interacting a lot (how much screentime does Clint have anyway? I read it's 13-ish minutes somewhere, but it feels longer) the director (we know you're brilliant, sir) made sure we don't miss the fact that these two people have miles and miles behind them, which they've crossed together.

While these two share a lot in common, I picked power and trust for today's discussion, and I'll try to keep this brief and somewhat coherent (it's not easy with ALL THE FEELS). One thing I love in my OTPs is the sense of equality. There is no doubt that both of them are powerful, in sense of things they can do, their skill set and the fact that they can hold the ground with four other superheroes, all of whom are somehow enhanced (while movie! Clint and Tasha are "ordinary humans".) One thing which I love (when I write or read about them) is when they're portrayed as equally matched (aka, both good and capable fighters, strong personalities, smart and resourceful people, but also flawed people, but I guess that's a whole different topic. I especially appreciate when fic authors don't write Clint as "weaker", less capable in physical fight in order to show how badass or strong Natasha is - they're both strong.) Power dynamics between equally matched partners is very interesting to discuss or write or read about. I've seen this portrayed in different ways, with one in the lead and the other following, one being in charge of one aspect of their lives and partnership while other handles other things. Or they shift the power between them in the way they see fit, or how the current mission requires it.

Which leads me to trust. They're not really designed to be trusting people, but that single scene they share in the movie simply screamed (mutual) trust. I'm always left with the feeling that Natasha, as scared after the Hulk - encounter as she was, didn't trust anyone else to go after Clint, and there can be many reasons. Clint is dangerous, even in his mind - controlled state (or especially while he was like that), and even more people could have been killed, but also, I like to think that she wanted to be the one who'll see if there is any Clint left in him. When he wakes up it doesn't take her long to decide it really is him now, and she unties him. There are lot of cues that subtly show the level of comfort between them (which implies trust) - from physical closeness and the fact that they briefly share a smile (and to me, it's an important clue, because they don't do this with other Avengers), to the fact that things don't have to be explained in detail. They obviously share a history, and probably secrets. As far as headcanons go (and I share most of mine with cybermathwitch who helped me out with this post so much!) - I like to think that they're each other's failsafe (and if one is gone beyond repair, the other will end their life), and that's, I suppose, the ultimate trust when it comes to people like them. But trust can (and does) expand to other areas of life and I love when it's explored, especially when it's a part of Natasha's reclaiming herself theme - for someone who couldn't rely on anyone, having a partner like Clint is a monumental thing, and I like to think that this mutual trust is the base of the loyalty we witness in Natasha, from the moment Coulson utters the famous words "Barton's been compromised".

Okay, enough of me! I can't possibly do this theme justice all on my own. The bar is open, share your thoughts, rec your favorite fics, discuss, flail, do the thing you do best - have fun! <3!

Comments

[cybermathwitch.livejournal.com]

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! One of my very favorite topics!

So, my notes on Trust in their entirety (as discussion points or fic/creative prompts or whatever!)

Trust: - watching each other's backs

- partners/working undercover

- for instance knowing that even if one of them changes gears or does something "off" on a mission, trusting the other person that there's a reason for it and going along with it.

Another example I find really powerful that cropped up almost accidentally in the fic I'm finishing where they thought she was dead? The idea that an Agent would have to be in the crowd to shoot her (in a non-fatal way) in order to fake her death, and she'd wanted it to be Clint because she trusted him and his abilities. So... that kind of thing, or situations where, say, someone is holding her and she has complete trust that Clint could shoot that person w/o hitting her and he has complete trust that she wont' move so he *can* line the shot up, that kind of thing.)

- of course there's trusting one another with each other's secrets

- and my personal favorite, trusting that they are willing and able to be one another's fail-safes.

My real intrigue with the trust angle, is figuring out *why* they come to trust one another to that point. I think at least part of it has to do with skill level - they're both way beyond average in a lot of skill categories - it's not just that (for instance) she knows that he's *willing* to take her out if she loses it, it's that she knows he *can*. And they can trust things like him being able to make a shot, or him being able to trust that she can do (whatever is required in a particular instance) because he knows she's that good. But what else? What makes him the one she's willing to give up her secrets to? That she's willing to be vulnerable to and with?

[cybermathwitch.livejournal.com]

And my thoughts on power (again, as discussion, inspirations, prompts or whatever!) :

Power: - they're both incredibly powerful people - even if you take them as both fully human. They're both very competent, and in charge when they want or need to be. Granted, we read dynamics into them, because we don't see a lot of it in the film, and there are several different ways to see a power dynamic between them. (And you can take the following to mean anything from their working relationship to other areas of their relationship and all sorts of places in between. ;)

Natasha as the primary one "in charge", with Clint "following" (though not mindlessly, and from any reason from devotion to respect) - This plays nicely off their possible working relationship, if she's the eyes on the ground working a room, feeling out the situation and making decisions on the fly, trusting him to back her up. From a personal angle, it can play out with themes of her taking charge because she needs to be in charge more (since she's so often NOT been in charge of her life and her choices.)

Clint as the primary one "in charge" with Natasha following (again, not mindlessly, and with a variety of motives) - He's the (theoretically) senior agent, having been with SHIELD longer. That could imply a higher level of authority in terms of missions. This plays into the idea of Clint as the tactician, of him calling the shots and giving the orders because he's observing the situation from above, while she works on the inside. In their personal lives, this plays into the idea that he's older, and in some situations he's better adapted to "normal" life (especially if we're talking early days of their partnership when she's trying to get her post- red room footing. Depending on how much mental and emotional damage one portrays her as having due to her past, he can also be the factor reigning her in. (That tends to be more of a dark!fic interpretation, but can be interesting to explore.

A give/take where one is "in charge" in their working partnership while the other is "in charge" in their private life - see above, but as a shifting balance, with a myriad of combinations.

A completely fluid equilibrium where it moves from one to the other depending entirely on the situation and needs at the time. (My personal favorite.)

[hiddencait.livejournal.com]

The thing that stuck out to me most as far as them being so very seamless as they work together, was the fact that half the time in the middle of the battle - they don't actually tell each other anything.

It's just "Nat" or "Clint" and both of them immediately know what the other needs them to see/do. That's a helluva connection there, and I love that as a detail. The kind of partners that can have those silent conversations totally intrigue me!

[chrisfaithalin.livejournal.com]

It's morning here so I might have more coherent thoughts later in the day, but when I think of trust with these two, I definitely agree that its tied with a sense of equality with them. I like the idea that they have different strengths, but that they are equally strong. He is more of a distance, big picture person. She can get up close and personal and immerse herself into a situation. They balance each other. I also find it annoying when an author purposefully writes Clint as weaker. To me it pushes too far in that direction of trying to make a woman seem stronger. I feel like Clint and Natasha don't feel like they have to be stronger than the other. That's not the relationship is about.

Another thought that pops into my head with trust and these two is that I like in stories when they don't pester each other. To me trust is letting the other one be themselves. I love stories when one of them is bothered by something and the other just waits until they are ready to talk about it. Of course there are times when you push somebody as well. I guess what I'm trying to say, I think these two know when to let the other one have some space and when they shouldn't let the other one be alone with their thoughts.

Like I said, maybe I will have some more coherent thoughts later and some recs. I really like this topic though because it highlights why I like these two so much.

trust and communication

[alphaflyer.livejournal.com]

Agree with all that's been said (and thanks, anuna, for the photos -- these actors' eyes are what fan fiction is based on). And yes, I see her volunteering to go after Clint very much as a "Let's see if he can be salvaged and if he can't, it should be me who ends it" moment.

There are lots of additional little notes that speak to these issues. That little scene that plays out on a monitor, with them fighting back to back (must be the Budapest she refers to, in my head canon, minus the aliens in New York, aka the reason he "remembers Budapest differently"). Or when Natasha rides the saucer ("Hawkeye? Little help here ..." "Got 'im"). That foot on the chair in the shawarma joint -- who else could/would get that close?

So much stuff to base a whole movie on ... to watch us how all this was earned. Right??

[delle.livejournal.com]

the thing that gets missed in a lot of fanfic (not that I've been gorging myself on C/N fic, no, not me) is that Clint is equally damaged emotionally. until SHIELD (and Fury, Colson and possibly Hill) trust him and have his back, he's been betrayed by every one he's ever been close to. We KNOW Natasha's damaged and lots of writers use it, but man, I'd love to see a few more fics on Slow-to-trust Clint.

on why i don't trust most idiots in charge

[sunny-serenity.livejournal.com]

especially coming from their comic origins and seeing how grossly misapplied the title 'strong female character' was used to manipulate, it made me hate natalia for yeeeeeeears. tbh, if clint had done the same to her i would've hated him too. so when their relationship was rebooted in the Ultimates (ugh, that stupid 'verse has so many problematic things in it. but i digress...) as SHIELD agents and together as partners and more, i was happy! aaaaand then, like all things comics, cycled back in to the same stupid shenanigans and i was done.

MCU (dangerously) gave me hope again... i know i shouldn't fall for it but gah! the minimalistic approach to them was fresh and new and if you read the books, you knew some of the allusions referenced to and were intrigued by the new unknown ones. the constant thread that was carried through from the very beginning of their relationship is that clint obviously loves and trusts her but we're left hanging somewhat when it comes to her side. we know she cares about him and goes through very long measures to get him back, but we don't know with certainty because she doesn't know. and if she does, she knows she can't afford it. she can't trust herself to go down that path with him, but she can trust him not to push her into unfamiliar territory. that was a nice twist. it's like the greatest payoff a fangirl could have. and if this ends up being completely screwed over in Phase Two or Three or Whatever, then at least i know it flawlessly existed once.

[cybermathwitch.livejournal.com]

So, does anyone have any fic recs related to the topic? :)

What are your favorite stories showing trust between them, and/or showing the power dynamics between them?

Hi!

[avenging-archer.livejournal.com]

Sticking my head in rather nervously, as I just joined this community, having seen it mentioned by several authors, and being extremely new to fandom with zero background in comic canon, beyond Wiki. I fell in love with the Marvel Movie universe after months of refusing to watch The Avengers because I'd never seen the other Marvel movies and thinking I'd be lost. Thankfully, my 16 year old daughter forced me to watch Thor in July, and being an Archer Obsessee, I immediately fell for Agent Barton in that 2 min cameo (is it even 2 min?). She then drug me to see Avengers and since then I've become something of an addicted crazy woman (she says she created a monster!), abandoning (at least temporarily) my fandom of six years when my muse fixated on 'that archer guy from SHIELD'.

So here I am, and I am really enjoying reading this discussion. Nothing to add since I'm feeling rather overwhelmed and newbie-ish, but definitely soaking it up! So I'll just say THANK YOU for such a great community, and casually/nervously/wincingly mention I'm about 20K words into what I expect will end up a 80-100K novel length back story on Clint and Natasha based on movie verse and the data found on the Bluray SHIELD Personnel Files for them, which apparently differs a bit from comic canon. It will be nice to have a place to post it when I get it far enough along to be comfortable doing so. :)