be_compromised | All Things Friday: power and trust

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all the things friday

All Things Friday: power and trust

So, I'll try to be as coherent as possible with this Friday's discussion - intro.

It's really amazing how "less is more" sometimes proves to be true. I've watched The Avengers at least ten times over the last few months and among several strong impressions the movie leaves me with each and every time, my favorite is the sense of connection between Hawkeye and Black Widow, aka, Natasha and Clint. Even though we don't see them interacting a lot (how much screentime does Clint have anyway? I read it's 13-ish minutes somewhere, but it feels longer) the director (we know you're brilliant, sir) made sure we don't miss the fact that these two people have miles and miles behind them, which they've crossed together.

While these two share a lot in common, I picked power and trust for today's discussion, and I'll try to keep this brief and somewhat coherent (it's not easy with ALL THE FEELS). One thing I love in my OTPs is the sense of equality. There is no doubt that both of them are powerful, in sense of things they can do, their skill set and the fact that they can hold the ground with four other superheroes, all of whom are somehow enhanced (while movie! Clint and Tasha are "ordinary humans".) One thing which I love (when I write or read about them) is when they're portrayed as equally matched (aka, both good and capable fighters, strong personalities, smart and resourceful people, but also flawed people, but I guess that's a whole different topic. I especially appreciate when fic authors don't write Clint as "weaker", less capable in physical fight in order to show how badass or strong Natasha is - they're both strong.) Power dynamics between equally matched partners is very interesting to discuss or write or read about. I've seen this portrayed in different ways, with one in the lead and the other following, one being in charge of one aspect of their lives and partnership while other handles other things. Or they shift the power between them in the way they see fit, or how the current mission requires it.

Which leads me to trust. They're not really designed to be trusting people, but that single scene they share in the movie simply screamed (mutual) trust. I'm always left with the feeling that Natasha, as scared after the Hulk - encounter as she was, didn't trust anyone else to go after Clint, and there can be many reasons. Clint is dangerous, even in his mind - controlled state (or especially while he was like that), and even more people could have been killed, but also, I like to think that she wanted to be the one who'll see if there is any Clint left in him. When he wakes up it doesn't take her long to decide it really is him now, and she unties him. There are lot of cues that subtly show the level of comfort between them (which implies trust) - from physical closeness and the fact that they briefly share a smile (and to me, it's an important clue, because they don't do this with other Avengers), to the fact that things don't have to be explained in detail. They obviously share a history, and probably secrets. As far as headcanons go (and I share most of mine with

cybermathwitch who helped me out with this post so much!) - I like to think that they're each other's failsafe (and if one is gone beyond repair, the other will end their life), and that's, I suppose, the ultimate trust when it comes to people like them. But trust can (and does) expand to other areas of life and I love when it's explored, especially when it's a part of Natasha's reclaiming herself theme - for someone who couldn't rely on anyone, having a partner like Clint is a monumental thing, and I like to think that this mutual trust is the base of the loyalty we witness in Natasha, from the moment Coulson utters the famous words "Barton's been compromised".

Okay, enough of me! I can't possibly do this theme justice all on my own. The bar is open, share your thoughts, rec your favorite fics, discuss, flail, do the thing you do best - have fun! <3!

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<3 Thank you.

And just because I love their interaction (so subtle and amazing, in this scene) --

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! One of my very favorite topics!

So, my notes on Trust in their entirety (as discussion points or fic/creative prompts or whatever!)

Trust: - watching each other's backs

- partners/working undercover

- for instance knowing that even if one of them changes gears or does something "off" on a mission, trusting the other person that there's a reason for it and going along with it.

Another example I find really powerful that cropped up almost accidentally in the fic I'm finishing where they thought she was dead? The idea that an Agent would have to be in the crowd to shoot her (in a non-fatal way) in order to fake her death, and she'd wanted it to be Clint because she trusted him and his abilities. So... that kind of thing, or situations where, say, someone is holding her and she has complete trust that Clint could shoot that person w/o hitting her and he has complete trust that she wont' move so he *can* line the shot up, that kind of thing.)

- of course there's trusting one another with each other's secrets

- and my personal favorite, trusting that they are willing and able to be one another's fail-safes.

My real intrigue with the trust angle, is figuring out *why* they come to trust one another to that point. I think at least part of it has to do with skill level - they're both way beyond average in a lot of skill categories - it's not just that (for instance) she knows that he's *willing* to take her out if she loses it, it's that she knows he *can*. And they can trust things like him being able to make a shot, or him being able to trust that she can do (whatever is required in a particular instance) because he knows she's that good. But what else? What makes him the one she's willing to give up her secrets to? That she's willing to be vulnerable to and with?

. I think at least part of it has to do with skill level - they're both way beyond average in a lot of skill categories - it's not just that (for instance) she knows that he's *willing* to take her out if she loses it, it's that she knows he *can*.

I know we've discussed this over and over, and I can never have enough of this discussion - for me it's heartbreaking that this option even exists (that either of them might lose it); but I think it's incredibly important for both of them that the other is perfectly capable of taking them out. I think that's also ultimate love - I won't let you turn into your own worst nightmare, I won't allow you to do damage and kill innocent people (basically, I will be able to let you go, because I know that's what you would choose.)

When it comes to how this trust was built in the first place - we don't have a backstory, but mostly the general idea (he was sent to kill her and for some reason he made a different call), so I'm running on my own (and yours, and those of other people) headcanon(s); I think he is the one to make the first step in that direction, show some form of honesty to her, and also, that he isn't afraid of her. That he sees her like a person, and not one of her roles. In training, for example, he isn't afraid to challenge her, intelectually, emotionally or physically, and I think she responds to that. As someone said, he offers the stability to her and in wake of that stability and grounded-ness she is safe to redefine herself; and that prompts trust and loyalty on her part.

LONG STORY SHORT - FEELS, I HAS THEM.

I love this and I like your thoughts about what would make them trust each other. In my head, them coming to trust each other did not happen in one great moment but in a shit tone of smaller ones. In some stories I see them revealing their back stories or confessing their secrets in one night of intimacy and that brings about trust. I think that wouldn't work for them because they both know how easily that can be A. faked and B. broken. To me, trust for them comes over months, even years, of just having each other's backs. It would come in the little moments of honesty. Only after working together for quite some time would they begin to trust each other professionally and then even longer for personal trust. They are the type of people that need to see that trust in action.

Yes! Yes! I think they are in this for the long game because they've been working on it for years already.

I think their secrets come a little at a time, dropped in conversations and offered up in give-and-take but only in small bits and pieces. They wait and see, especially at first, to see if those secrets are compromised in anyway. When it isn't, another is offered up.

Yeas, this this this :) *nodding* And then at some point they don't even need many words to tell that something is bothering them.

Because they see and understand all the little nuances that other people miss!

And my thoughts on power (again, as discussion, inspirations, prompts or whatever!) :

Power: - they're both incredibly powerful people - even if you take them as both fully human. They're both very competent, and in charge when they want or need to be. Granted, we read dynamics into them, because we don't see a lot of it in the film, and there are several different ways to see a power dynamic between them. (And you can take the following to mean anything from their working relationship to other areas of their relationship and all sorts of places in between. ;)

Natasha as the primary one "in charge", with Clint "following" (though not mindlessly, and from any reason from devotion to respect) - This plays nicely off their possible working relationship, if she's the eyes on the ground working a room, feeling out the situation and making decisions on the fly, trusting him to back her up. From a personal angle, it can play out with themes of her taking charge because she needs to be in charge more (since she's so often NOT been in charge of her life and her choices.)

Clint as the primary one "in charge" with Natasha following (again, not mindlessly, and with a variety of motives) - He's the (theoretically) senior agent, having been with SHIELD longer. That could imply a higher level of authority in terms of missions. This plays into the idea of Clint as the tactician, of him calling the shots and giving the orders because he's observing the situation from above, while she works on the inside. In their personal lives, this plays into the idea that he's older, and in some situations he's better adapted to "normal" life (especially if we're talking early days of their partnership when she's trying to get her post- red room footing. Depending on how much mental and emotional damage one portrays her as having due to her past, he can also be the factor reigning her in. (That tends to be more of a dark!fic interpretation, but can be interesting to explore.

A give/take where one is "in charge" in their working partnership while the other is "in charge" in their private life - see above, but as a shifting balance, with a myriad of combinations.

A completely fluid equilibrium where it moves from one to the other depending entirely on the situation and needs at the time. (My personal favorite.)

I think it's definitely realistic to have them do a combination of the two. In certain situations, she's in charge and in others, he is. I think the key, as you brought up, is that it's never a mindless devotion sort of thing. It's simply what is needed at the moment.

I also think, because they're both powerful in and of themselves yet neither of them NEEDS to be in charge, they can have a sharing of the power because they aren't trying to fight the other. They both know what needs to be done and what the other one is capable of.

It's really hard to separate out trust from power. The two are so tangled up in what Clint and Natasha are to each other!

The thing that stuck out to me most as far as them being so very seamless as they work together, was the fact that half the time in the middle of the battle - they don't actually tell each other anything.

It's just "Nat" or "Clint" and both of them immediately know what the other needs them to see/do. That's a helluva connection there, and I love that as a detail. The kind of partners that can have those silent conversations totally intrigue me!

This might be the reason why I have trouble writing them having an actual conversation in certain situations! (so maybe I'm not doing anything wrong, but they don't *need* to talk, not in words anyway).

That single scene they share together is one huge conversation within a conversation. They don't exchange many words, but facial expressions, and how much they tell wordlessly? God. GUH. FEELS. (also, amazing, amazing acting, and I can't even pick who's my favorite in that scene.)

Yes! This! Any time a couple does this - I am ALL there.

I think one of my very, very favorite moments is the look on his face when he lines up the shot at Loki - I think in part the pleased expression is because he's getting his shot at Loki, but part of it seems like a real satisfaction at having her back. :D

It's morning here so I might have more coherent thoughts later in the day, but when I think of trust with these two, I definitely agree that its tied with a sense of equality with them. I like the idea that they have different strengths, but that they are equally strong. He is more of a distance, big picture person. She can get up close and personal and immerse herself into a situation. They balance each other. I also find it annoying when an author purposefully writes Clint as weaker. To me it pushes too far in that direction of trying to make a woman seem stronger. I feel like Clint and Natasha don't feel like they have to be stronger than the other. That's not the relationship is about.

Another thought that pops into my head with trust and these two is that I like in stories when they don't pester each other. To me trust is letting the other one be themselves. I love stories when one of them is bothered by something and the other just waits until they are ready to talk about it. Of course there are times when you push somebody as well. I guess what I'm trying to say, I think these two know when to let the other one have some space and when they shouldn't let the other one be alone with their thoughts.

Like I said, maybe I will have some more coherent thoughts later and some recs. I really like this topic though because it highlights why I like these two so much.

Well you sound perfectly coherent to me, but yeah - mornings = fog in the brain. :)

I like how you describe them both; the distinction you've pointed out - he is the big picture person (he sees better from a distance; he sees it all and then connects the dots and figures out what's happening and how and why --- I love when he tells Tony that Chitauri can't fly in groups and what to do about it. And of course he was right. *nods*) and Natasha is the one who is supposed to get close to inflict damage. I think it was

inkvoices who wrote in her Natasha - meta --- you're supposed to underestimate her and let her come close. That's how she works. So agreed, they do compliment each other with their different skillsets.

They balance each other. I also find it annoying when an author purposefully writes Clint as weaker. To me it pushes too far in that direction of trying to make a woman seem stronger. I feel like Clint and Natasha don't feel like they have to be stronger than the other.

THIS. Not the way to do it because, a) you don't achieve a "strong female character" by downplaying abilities and strengths of male characters around her. How is that strong if you have to weaken others around her to make her appear stronger? and b) the strength (or capabilities, or skills) aren't an issue between them. Trust and power balance and loyalty and knowing each other so well that one single look in the middle of the fight is enough to communicate - those are Things. They're amazing and intriguing partially because they're each other's match. (Also? I like, for a change, when I read in fic how he beats her in sparring match.)

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Honestly? I might have read it once or twice, and it was... months ago? I know I would like to read it more often. Or maybe, this is something that should be written more often *hint hint*

I'm not there yet... but eventually I can hook you up with that one... ;)

Is this the one I know about or the one I'm not aware of (yet? right now? because that thing with thread is destroying my brain).

It's from the headcanon... so I've probably mentioned it?

Not enough caffeine in my system, then!

I completely agree with the sparring thing. I've got to go back to see if I can find an example. It's so rare when he beats her. What I like better is when neither really wins because they know each other so well. It's more done as a stress relief activity than an actual physical exercise. It would seem logical that they have skills that complement each other and that knowing each other's moves would make it hard for either to get the upper hand.

Agree with all that's been said (and thanks, anuna, for the photos -- these actors' eyes are what fan fiction is based on). And yes, I see her volunteering to go after Clint very much as a "Let's see if he can be salvaged and if he can't, it should be me who ends it" moment.

There are lots of additional little notes that speak to these issues. That little scene that plays out on a monitor, with them fighting back to back (must be the Budapest she refers to, in my head canon, minus the aliens in New York, aka the reason he "remembers Budapest differently"). Or when Natasha rides the saucer ("Hawkeye? Little help here ..." "Got 'im"). That foot on the chair in the shawarma joint -- who else could/would get that close?

So much stuff to base a whole movie on ... to watch us how all this was earned. Right??

these actors' eyes are what fan fiction is based on.

Agreed. Because with less skillful actors, this just wouldn't happen. They both manage that quiet intensity and make this scene so layered and complex. And so interesting. Like you I would love to see how that was earned. (Or read about it!)

His foot in her chair, when they're both beaten and tired and dusty is one of my favorite things!

the thing that gets missed in a lot of fanfic (not that I've been gorging myself on C/N fic, no, not me) is that Clint is equally damaged emotionally. until SHIELD (and Fury, Colson and possibly Hill) trust him and have his back, he's been betrayed by every one he's ever been close to. We KNOW Natasha's damaged and lots of writers use it, but man, I'd love to see a few more fics on Slow-to-trust Clint.

That is so true and the point I miss in a lot of the stories as well. But that might be, because most stories have them meeting when Clint has already worked for SHIELD for quite some time and has had the opportunity to overcome some of his trust issues, I believe. Though, in my personal opinion, he has been scarred emotionally and physically by all the betrayal in his life, that he would still be wary of new people. Therefor, I would imagine that it would take quite some time for him to really put himself out there and trust Natasha.

And I totally second that request :)

Exactly! Clint's back story breaks my heart and there is no way you come out of all that shit being unscathed. I agree that there is a lack of focus on him coming to terms with his past in the fandom. There is a lot of stuff about the aftermath of Loki, but not so much with his childhood. I want to write a story like that, and even started one, but it just got so depressing to write flashback I had to put it down for a while.

It's not Clint and Natasha, although there are stories in this series that have to do with them, but a great Clint angst story is Youngest in History by Aggie2011. It's a little rough around the edges (her newer stories are better because she has a beta), but its got a great Phil and Clint dynamic, with Phil helping Clint deal with the shit from his past. It's one of my favorite stories because it deals with how messed up Clint is.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8326029/1/Youngest-in-History

working on it ... ;-)

Ditto! I'd love to see more fics with better, non-cracky characterizations of Clint, in general. Natasha at least usuall gets respect, even if she's not the focus of the fic. Clint gets nesting in the air vents in a purple outfit.

Coming late to this thread and nodding along because, yeah... the Clint characterization in a lot of the popular team fics is such that I don't really recognize the guy from the movie.

Did you read 'Recruitment' by Slynn? I thought that one does really intriguing job with Clint's past and his issues, merging movie and comics canon.
http://archiveofourown.org/works/455361

Agreed. *nods* Someone mentioned it, and I tend to agree that, at the point when Clint meets Nat he's already been with SHIELD several years. I suppose he just wouldn't be of much use to an organization like SHIELD if he continued to be completely fucked up. I like to think that he had time to heal and learned at least how to pick out the people he's going to trust. Besides, with Natasha's theme of reclaiming herself (and essentially healing) I like having Clint who has already healed to some degree (and knows about these things firsthand), which is why he's capable of being a stabilizing factor for her. But, when it comes to other people I think he's slow to trust, or very careful at least.

especially coming from their comic origins and seeing how grossly misapplied the title 'strong female character' was used to manipulate, it made me hate natalia for yeeeeeeears. tbh, if clint had done the same to her i would've hated him too. so when their relationship was rebooted in the Ultimates (ugh, that stupid 'verse has so many problematic things in it. but i digress...) as SHIELD agents and together as partners and more, i was happy! aaaaand then, like all things comics, cycled back in to the same stupid shenanigans and i was done.

MCU (dangerously) gave me hope again... i know i shouldn't fall for it but gah! the minimalistic approach to them was fresh and new and if you read the books, you knew some of the allusions referenced to and were intrigued by the new unknown ones. the constant thread that was carried through from the very beginning of their relationship is that clint obviously loves and trusts her but we're left hanging somewhat when it comes to her side. we know she cares about him and goes through very long measures to get him back, but we don't know with certainty because she doesn't know. and if she does, she knows she can't afford it. she can't trust herself to go down that path with him, but she can trust him not to push her into unfamiliar territory. that was a nice twist. it's like the greatest payoff a fangirl could have. and if this ends up being completely screwed over in Phase Two or Three or Whatever, then at least i know it flawlessly existed once.

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THIS.

THIRDED.

ME FOUR DUDE.

Ultimates had so much potential and became awful very quickly. I liked the way Clint and Natasha's partnership was written at the beginning, but then it was shot to hell in that gross storyline where Nat went evil because... reasons. Was there a reason other than her being Russian?

And on that note, have any comic book authors (especially Brubaker, grrrr) realised that the Cold War is over? It seems like they don't know what to do with their Cold War origin characters so they act like the Cold War is still ongoing. Character development, people! You can do it if you put any effort into it!

Clint and Nat's movie relationship is clearly Ultimates inspired, but I think in a way it's good that Ultimates was so bloody towards the end, they wouldn't want to have that Natasha storyline in a movie that is partially marketed to children.

rawr Ultimates! (oh, and they're continuing that line but discontinuing certain titles which honestly, i could have done without the whole thing tbqh.) completely ageee with certain writers not being able to leave well enough alone and constantly hitting the reset button. stunted lazy writing is stunted and lazy. everythig with natasha at the moment seems perfect because we know so little. IM2 hints at her origins within the 'i need your impression/old soul' exchange between her and stark and it leaves me torn between wanting that back story fleshed out and leaving it as is. even though steve rogers has established the aging serum and frozen in time stuff but i am pretty much over and done with the Mother Russia loyalty crap we get force fed over and over again if that's part ofthe plot. besides the idea of the RR being continued nefariously AFTER the cold war and movie!natasha being a product of that in today's modern setting, is a bit more ominous and flush with modern day commentary as backdrop for black widow movie that potentially has her taking this system down.

i enjoy the degree of extrapolation and liberties the MCU has taken. i hope it continues with the trend in a good way. you kind of want them to pull from the most outrageous because it foreces them to make it better!

Edited 2012-10-27 00:55 (UTC)

So, does anyone have any fic recs related to the topic? :)

What are your favorite stories showing trust between them, and/or showing the power dynamics between them?

Edited 2012-10-27 02:28 (UTC)

Of languages? It deals with the team and them not being willing to expand their trust on others :)

well, I did this thing called "Going to Ground" which is based on the premise that after some totally awful mission, they go off the grid for a bit to level out -- together. It's set right after Manhattan, and they're not a couple (yet). It is all about trust. Because I'm a putz and can't post directly to LJ (yet) you'll have to go look for it on AO3 or FFN; there's a link in an earlier "Fic" post.

Although in light of the foregoing I have to come clean: it includes a line that she mostly beats him when they spar (I put that in not to make her look stronger, but because it's her specialty, and she DOES best him on that catwalk (albeit with her teeth).

Completely agree with posters who don't like "crack" Clint -- totally OOC based on what we got on the screen. Also that whole Avengers live in a dorm and have movie nights? I mean, seriously ... ;-)

I read your story and absolutely LOVED IT! :) Brilliant bit of writing. Totally intimidated me in my attempts to write in this fandom, but I'm gonna stick it out anyway. :)

Sticking my head in rather nervously, as I just joined this community, having seen it mentioned by several authors, and being extremely new to fandom with zero background in comic canon, beyond Wiki. I fell in love with the Marvel Movie universe after months of refusing to watch The Avengers because I'd never seen the other Marvel movies and thinking I'd be lost. Thankfully, my 16 year old daughter forced me to watch Thor in July, and being an Archer Obsessee, I immediately fell for Agent Barton in that 2 min cameo (is it even 2 min?). She then drug me to see Avengers and since then I've become something of an addicted crazy woman (she says she created a monster!), abandoning (at least temporarily) my fandom of six years when my muse fixated on 'that archer guy from SHIELD'.

So here I am, and I am really enjoying reading this discussion. Nothing to add since I'm feeling rather overwhelmed and newbie-ish, but definitely soaking it up! So I'll just say THANK YOU for such a great community, and casually/nervously/wincingly mention I'm about 20K words into what I expect will end up a 80-100K novel length back story on Clint and Natasha based on movie verse and the data found on the Bluray SHIELD Personnel Files for them, which apparently differs a bit from comic canon. It will be nice to have a place to post it when I get it far enough along to be comfortable doing so. :)

Welcome! I'm glad you're poking your head out. It's always nice meeting new fans of these two. This community pretty much is the most kickass one I've been a part of. And yay another writer for these two! Seriously, the rate I read stories there can never be enough authors for these two, lol.

Welcome to the community! It's always nice to see new shippers. We mods strive to keep this a friendly, helpful space, so if you have any questions or suggestions, feel free to contact one of us.

casually/nervously/wincingly mention I'm about 20K words into what I expect will end up a 80-100K novel length back story on Clint and Natasha based on movie verse and the data found on the Bluray SHIELD Personnel Files for them, which apparently differs a bit from comic canon.

Well, isn't that intriguing. ;) I do love a good Clint/Natasha novel length fic. *grabby hands* Don't worry about not following comic canon, most fans regard the movies and the films as separate universes.

Hello! I remember well being intimidated by this comm and all the awesome here just a few months ago, but I can honestly say that people here are friendly, that we're here for love and fun and new shippers and new fic is always welcome!

Also, I understand your obsession very well. My old fandoms are suffering and my friends are giving me weird looks but - THIS IS THE BEST YACHT EVER as we say here.

As far as canons in movie and comics go, we tend to take from comics what we like and incorporate it in personal canons. I think you'll find different approaches and interpretations of Clint and Natasha, there isn't one right way to go. Lots of creative freedom! :)

I feel a bit odd saying "welcome" because I've only been here for a couple of weeks myself. But yeah -- I get that whole obsession bit ... it crept up on me rather unexpectedly, and I've been (unsuccessfully) trying to scrabble my way back to my original fandom (Star Trek: Voyager) ever since. I owe people the third part of a trilogy (they're starting to complain ...) and instead I've produced one-and-a-half Avengers pieces.

It doesn't help when you have friends who present you with Hawkeye action figures... ;-) And yeah, my own fourteen-year-old informs people quite gleefully that "my Mom's addicted to the Avengers."

I'm nervous about doing backstory stuff because there's so much comic canon out there that I have no clue about (and no wish to get into), so I look forward to yours! I did a spot of imagining the "he made a different call" but in Chapter 2 of my latest ("In the Service") but that's probably as far as I'll go.

I admire you for your novel length ambitions (I've done five of those for Voyager -- they do knock the stuffing out of you.) Bpn courage!

::waves:: Hi there! :D

*waves* Hi!
I like the sound of that... 80-100K novel length back story. :o)

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All Things Friday: power and trust

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trust and communication

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"man, I'd love to see a few more fics on Slow-to-trust Clint"

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on why i don't trust most idiots in charge

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Hi!

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