ext_44126 (
jacedesbff.livejournal.com) wrote in
be_compromised2012-12-21 02:16 pm
Entry tags:
All Things Friday - Conflict & Conflict Resolution
Clint and Natasha, Hawkeye & Black Widow – Why do they fight? What do they argue about? How often? How do they go about it? Do they yell? Throw things? Work it out on the sparring mat? Give each other the silent treatment? How do they argue differently when they’re being Clint and Natasha as opposed to Hawkeye and Black Widow? How do they resolve their issues? Does one person always have to give in or do they compromise? Which one of them has a temper (or do they both)? Can others tell when these two are fighting or are they private about? SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!
The bottom line is that partners have conflicts. I’m using the word “conflict” as opposed to “argue” or “fight” because the question here is what shape those conflicts take – are they arguments and/or fights? Are they heated? Are they quick and then done?
Here’s another angle to consider – if in your personal headcanon these two are romantically involved, how do conflicts that come from one arena, i.e. Clint just won’t put the seat down, affect the other arena, i.e. now that they’re on a mission, does Black Widow even think about that stupid toilet seat? Or if Hawkeye takes out the last terrorist, the one that Black Widow already claimed, thank you very much, does Natasha take it out on Clint when they get home? Even if there is no romance and the two are platonic best friends, how do these things translate?
SO MANY FEELS!!! So give us your thoughts, your recs, your drabbles, your fics. Conflicts and conflict resolution. Have it out!
The bottom line is that partners have conflicts. I’m using the word “conflict” as opposed to “argue” or “fight” because the question here is what shape those conflicts take – are they arguments and/or fights? Are they heated? Are they quick and then done?
Here’s another angle to consider – if in your personal headcanon these two are romantically involved, how do conflicts that come from one arena, i.e. Clint just won’t put the seat down, affect the other arena, i.e. now that they’re on a mission, does Black Widow even think about that stupid toilet seat? Or if Hawkeye takes out the last terrorist, the one that Black Widow already claimed, thank you very much, does Natasha take it out on Clint when they get home? Even if there is no romance and the two are platonic best friends, how do these things translate?
SO MANY FEELS!!! So give us your thoughts, your recs, your drabbles, your fics. Conflicts and conflict resolution. Have it out!
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If we're talking about Clint and Natasha as part of team!Avengers, I imagine they both like to think nobody can notice they've been fighting/arguing about something. They're wrong, tho. it's not that they're bad at covering stuff up, but rather the fact that team, as a team, has a certain dynamic and when the balance is disturbed they all sense it, and sense something is wrong.
As for writing, I just thought about this the other day and realized I haven't written about them properly arguing about something, and decided I should do this some time soon. I did write about conflict and resolving of it, in the second part of Red Thread series (http://head-on-home.livejournal.com/16796.html). Mine is Clint's POV, and
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I'm also with you in that I hope they would resolve issues quickly, and for the reasons you listed. This isn't a pair that needs to go into battle with unresolved issues.
Very cool!
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Yes! A tightly knit group is like a body. Clint and Nat being angry at each other, that would feel like a sore limb. Boys would be concerned and would probably attempt to help them. Accent on attempt. ;) Actually, it would be interesting to see how two of them get used to this - others figure out something is wrong and poke and prod, and two of them getting used to this kind of thing from four other people who are concerned and mean well.
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You Have To Fight To Make Up by Eiluned
http://archiveofourown.org/works/373027
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The longest running conflict they've had is post-Loki, when Natasha had moved into Clint's apartment to keep an eye on him. That wasn't the conflict. The conflict was two parts: Natasha wanted Clint to go to therapy because he badly needed help, and Clint turns into a jerk when he's hurting. She'd get frustrated; his abandonment issues would twist so he'd take shots (metaphorical) at her from frustration, because they were arguing, and/or from the combined place of 'if you stick around, you actually mean it; if you are going to go, get it over with'. In my headcanon, Coulson a) lives and b) is good friends with both Natasha and Clint, so Natasha ended up getting him to help.
They can hiss at each other over everything from Clint not leaving his shoes at the door to what Natasha spends on food (he grew up hovering in and under the poverty-line - how she spends money is a conflict that isn't going to go away) to Clint not going to therapy to Natasha being more sociopathic than normal and screwing people over whom Clint thinks can't handle it. They might talk it over, or just offer silent apologies (sex from Clint, food from Natasha is fairly standard, but they mix and match and make other overtures of peace), but they are both professionals enough (and honestly don't work together that much) that their domestic fights don't spill out into their working lives.
Professional disagreements or conflicts - actually, Natasha and Clint are better at handling them, because they are professional and both habitually work in teams, and they take too much pride in their work to fuck up their work (or endanger their co-workers) by not dealing with things.
Ficly, I've written:
Here's No Game: no arguing really talks place, but Natasha feels the undercover personas are blurring and messing things up, so she (eventually) brings up the subject with an 'in future, we aren't doing this'. Not arguing, but it was an issue and a potential conflict of interest of personal and professional lines blurring that they are dealing with before it becomes more of an issue (set pre-canon; daemon AU)
I've got troubles enough set very, very early on in Natasha's SHEILD career - the conflict (Clint punched someone, the rumour mill is saying because of Natasha, and Natasha is really not happy about this) is resolved through talking.
(not a) kiss with a fist is set post-canon when Clint is in the middle of his post-Loki unhappy place; the argument itself doesn't feature, but Natasha kisses him to try and get across what words didn't (and the fact that they don't normally get physical for various reasons is addressed)
An Apology (of a Kind) is set during the same time as the above ficlet. This is post-argument, when Clint's stormed one way and Natasha stormed the other, and while Clint doesn't verbally apologize, he makes an overture of peach which is accepted.
Domestic conflicts - if they go on for a while - are probably noticeable, but as I don't have the Avengers being a family in my headcanon (exception being Steve ending up as a little brother to Natasha), I haven't really thought about outsiders noticing beyond Coulson (and that was more...Natasha visiting him in hospital and crying at him, because long-term stress and worry and Coulson is safe, and Natasha is only human)
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That said, back in my fencing days my husband and I sometimes settled things "by the sword," but usually just bets, or who had to do the dishes -- never real disputes! :-)
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Ahahah, makes me miss my own fencing and re-enactment days. But I can see that kind of sparing! Disputes and jokes without any anger behind them settled on the sparring mat.
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I also agree with your comments that it would be too reminiscent for Clint of his childhood and he wouldn't go near it with a ten-foot pole. Given the hideousness of Natasha's childhood, I can't see her liking it, either. Very well said. And truly, it helps express in words why I was never comfortable with that particular take on things. (Doesn't make a story bad - just means that part wasn't my favorite.)
Excellent discussion, all!
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(See also a theme with two of my fics)
Sparring matches where they 'don't hold anything back' never sit well with me, either - if either of them don't hold back, then they are trying to kill the other and risk either doing that, or causing a lasting injury. I won't back out of a fic that has them do it, but I'll eye it as jarring.
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Things will, of course, get more complicated if/when theyâre romantically engaged. Hereâs a little scene Iâm working on for âThe Skies Over Manhattanâ (slightly abridged, without proper italics and stuff. I hate .html!!). [Tried to put this under a "spoiler cut" -- please don't yell at me if it didn't work ...]
Natasha sighs heavily. Sheâs trying to do this right, she really is, but heâs not exactly helping. Clint Barton is not a social animal on his best days, a pain in the ass on his worst, and an acquired taste at any time. Right now, she is wondering whether she is doing the smart thing, trying to drag him kicking and screaming into a place where he obviously doesnât want to be: Normal.
âItâs just drinks. Two hours, tops.â
âJust drinks? People like us donât do just drinks, Tasha. When we go to a function, itâs for a purpose. To take out a mark, or walk off with some useful intel. Or both. We ⦠I ⦠donât just stand around with a glass of wine and make small talk.â
Coming out of Clintâs mouth, the word small talk sounds like something slimy, with retractable fangs and a frilly dress. He gives her a baleful blue-green stare, fuelled by twenty-four-karats worth of Barton pigheadedness.
Natasha holds his eyes with hers. Is this what domestic quarrels are about? Normal couples have them; sheâs read about them those books, and some magazines. But this canât possibly be it. Uh-uh. She and Clint arenât ⦠they donât do ⦠normal.
The irony that this is exactly what sheâs been trying to achieve hits her in the face with the power of Mjolnir.
...
âFine. Iâll go alone. You stay here and feel sorry for yourself, and fletch some more arrows. Iâll tell Pepper my date developed a sudden case of shingles and hope Steve didnât bring someone. Maybe we can get our picture on Twitter and start some rumours.â
Clint broods for a minute, looking for an out, wondering just how badly he should be looking for one given that she really seems to want this, for whatever reason. Theyâre supposed to be doing this couple thing now, right? Talk about being compromised.
Natasha hasnât moved; she is still staring at him, scanning his face for signs that he might crack. She can hold that kind of posture for hours, just like he can his bow.
Dammit.
Sometimes, Clint has learned, the only way to make a graceful exit is to punch something in the face and step over its body. He grits his teeth. Arrows. She mentioned arrows.
âGuess I could talk to Stark about some arrow designs Iâve been thinking about.â
Natasha gives him a small but genuine smile, the kind that very few people get to see. Somehow, she manages to keep any hint of triumph out of it. Take the victory, donât stick around to gloat, go on to the next target.
And then, because sheâs read on one of those magazines that flexibility deserves a reward and that positive reinforcement is a good thing, she goes up to him and gives him a long, deep kiss -- before moving in for the kill.
âOh, I lied about the jeans, Barton. Wear black pants and the black Armani jacket I got you, you know, for that trafficking job in Hamburg? White or black t-shirt â I donât care. You can pick.â
Clint just rolls his eyes.
âWho or what the hell is Armani?â
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Cannot wait for the rest ;) *is a happy camper*
TW: domestic violence
I think they both have a natural tendency to bottle things up, to shove issues down and try to ignore them rather than dealing with them outright, but they do try to make an effort to talk about things, especially once they're romantically involved. They recognise that relationships, like good partnerships, require communication in order to work. First they put in the effort to make their partnership work (because there was a lot riding on it at the beginning for both of them), then they do the same for their relationship. It's something they consciously do, because it doesn't come to them naturally.
They bicker about the small stuff and have shouting matches (in private, soundproof locations where they can't be overheard), but it's when they don't talk to each other that something is really wrong.
Re: TW: domestic violence
Re: TW: domestic violence
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This isn't intended to be actual fic, per se, so much as it's just word vomit designed to get me writing.
***
They donât fight, not with each other. They donât spar, they donât hit or kick or throw punches because that would be too real, too close, too personal. Theyâve fought only once, back at the beginning, and even then it was aborted, just weapons drawn on each other, a stalemate until suddenly it wasnât anymore.
They donât fight because they donât want to know whoâs better. Even after Loki and all the shit that went down on the Helicarrier, they arenât sure whoâs better, and thatâs just the way they like it. Because he was fighting Loki while he was fighting her, and she was trying not to kill him without pulling her punches.
They fight together, and itâs beautiful, a violent dance, pure motion and emotion all rolled up in one choreographed miasma.
Mostly, theyâre really freaking awesome and they donât hit each other because that shit is just too weird and I kind of hate that trope, now that I think about it.
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As for settling arguments physically, I don't think either of them would fight it out. I also have the headcanon that Clint never wants to become like his abusive father figures. I also read them as literally never wanting to hurt the other (in the Helicarrier fight, there was a reluctance there from both of them to hit the other).
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Hmm, do you think so? I read it as he was doing his best to kill her, and she was trying to take him down/defend herself while not killing him. I find it interesting that so many people can watch the same scene, and draw completely different conclusions from it. It's fun :-)
But yeah, I'm with you on seeing Clint as the calmer one (if nothing else, the man is a professional sniper: that is a career that calls for someone to be very good at keeping his cool) with Natasha with the quicker temper.
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But yes, they are both professionals, first and foremost.
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I have a slightly different head canon when it comes to arguments. For some reason in my head, I don't see them having them really. Initially, yes, they probably butted heads all of the time. But as, their partnership grew and they started a personal relationship I don't see them really fighting. To me, both of them, but especially Clint, have seen how conflict has torn apart even the strongest bonds. They also work in a trade that has them witnessing and being a part of conflict a lot. In their private life I see them not wanting to waste the time on fighting. They are both independent people who just kind of let the other be. So Clint doesn't tidy up after himself, Natasha just steps around the mess. So Natasha likes the apartment cold, Clint just wears extra layers. I think there would be little bickering about small things, when it is easier to just let the other be and not let small things get under your skin.
As for if there were very big differences in opinions on something important, I think they calmly talk it out. If they get to the point where neither side is willing to bend, they just kind of disengage. They take time to cool off, maybe vent to somebody else (usually Coulson) and reapproach the issue. They are both stubborn people and know it. But in the end, I can't imagine anything that would be a huge argument to them.
As I'm writing this and thinking about this, I know it sounds kind of idyllic, but I just think there is so much darkness in their jobs and past, that when they are home and with each other they just want to not spend the time fighting. They also respect each other enough and are independent enough to not try to change each other. I guess that's my two cents on the topic.
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The fact that Clint had a childhood filled with abuse and therefore won't let an argument turn physical is something I can only underline double time. If there is one thing that makes him such a good archer, it's the control he has over his body in any given situation and what made him stick with that control, perfect it, was him never ever wanting to turn into his dad ... or foster dad 2, 3 and 5 (you know what I mean). The same thing is true for Natasha. She comes from a different kind of dark childhood in my head, but dark it was nonetheless. They know what they can do with their bodies after all.
I can see Clint as someone, that needs to chew on things for a while, again because of the control thing. He won't just shout things, he'll have thought about them first. So I see him taking a break once it gets too intense. Going outside for a while, to think things through.
Tasha on the other hand ... well, firstly, she is used to control just as Clint is, but different. She is used to controlling her body, sure but mainly she controls people, manipulates them. And one thing I can see her struggling with is sometimes not knowing what is full on manipulation of someone she cares about, and what is still normal, garden variety relationship psychology she is "allowed" to use ... you know what I mean? I don't mean she isn't full aware when she puts her womanly wiles on someone (or her Widow-y wiles ^^), no. But especially once they are involved romantically, try that "couple thing" for real, that it gets a bit confusing for her. Because she is in more fake relationships than real ones ... I can see that being an issue.
And that, coupled with Clints need for patience (because between the two, she isn't the patient one) sometimes drives her up the wall and turns a silly little nearly-argument like "you don't eat properly" (Tasha) or "that shampoo costs more than the contents of my wardrobe" (Clint) into something more.
I can see Clint as being the one that has a few things he is set on and those, he won't let go or won't compromise about. But with other things, he might be the one to search for a compromise quicker, or give in rather than get into it head-to-head with Tasha.
Tasha on the other hand, probably takes longer to get there (she is one stubborn lady, things are meant to go her way or the highway) but in the end can find a solution for pretty much anything, if talked about properly.
Now, work conflicts. I could actually see the two being so set on being "stable" at work, that sometimes they take something that happened in the office (ok, let's be honest, a mission) and turn it into a private relationship-argument, take it home with them so to speak, than make it about something that is just work related. Do you know what I mean? Of course, it depends on what it is, but the thing is ... they are both passionate people, so if something shitty happened during a mission, they will both talk it through calmly and logically with Coulson once back, make a decision how to handle situation B next time, and move on.
But the emotions that were there during the mission, they are still around. And that is what they then take home and put into ... well, frankly, either a hot, rough quicky where it's more about taking than about giving, or they argue. But I can see both of them being able to recognise what that particular argument is about.
OK, I'll wrap this up now ... I could go on for ages, I think ... but it's nearly ten am, I need to get a move on life for the day, so to speak ;)
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My Natasha struggles with this, too (and it's not helped by Clint's carnie background, either); she ends up not trying to manipulate at all - which can lead to its own issues.
And your point about professional bleeding over into personal is something I find really interesting - I'm going to have to mull over that. It does make sense, though.
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In Clint's case, I'm intriguing to see how he would react when Natasha has to put on the seduction routine AFTER they become a couple. There are some fics around that deal with this, but usually in a pretty superficial fashion (mostly PWPs, leading to hot and steamy sex ...). I'm planning on dealing with it in a somewhat more adult fashion at some point, but it sure is an interesting issue that warrants many different perspectives.
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So, if you were curious at all on our take:
Just Be Quiet With Me by
nothing but a fear is something I wrote dealing with the question of Clint being jealous.
I actually have no issue with PWPs set post-mission; if Natashsa wants to have very consensual sex to reclaim herself and her body, more than happy to read it and it's a pretty valid way of dealing with all of the consent issues. It's when Clint gets all...angry-jealous-you're-mine that I click away, given how I view those missions (and also how I view Clint's attitude to sex). But, yes! It is a very interesting issue with a bunch of different perspectives.
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Fighting is physical, & I'm with pretty much everyone else here on this: they never do it when they're angry at each other. They do fight on a regular basis, but that's sparring, & it's more a bonding exercise than anything else. It can occasionally look vicious to outsiders (I can just see someone calling up Coulson early on, saying 'come to the gym, Hawkeye & Black Widow are trying to kill each other'), but for those in the know, it often draws an admiring crowd for the show. They might occasionally do it when one of them has the irrits or angry with someone else, & needs to blow off steam or work off a bad mood, but again, for them this is the equivalent of one person holding the punching bag while the other beats it up. They don't hold back from each other in physical conflict (other than the obvious 'it's a bad idea to cause damage to your partner when you might get called into action at any time') because they know exactly how the other fights, & how far they need to be pushed at that moment; in some ways, it's an ongoing show of respect; 'I know I'm awesome at what I do & I'm perfectly aware that you're awesome enough to keep up with me'.
Arguing is strictly verbal, & it's done coldly & calmly. They mostly do it quietly & by strict codes of war, because again, they are acutely aware of how much damage they can do to each other. Arguing happens over serious issues, & unless there's an unexpected call to action, they don't stop until either one of them needs a breather to get their thoughts in order (and for that, they don't go further than the balcony or next room) or the issue is resolved. Partly because they know how precarious their lives can be & unresolved issues & regrets aren't things that should linger with people who are important to them, partly because lingering issues that could lead to work problems are something they can't afford in the field, because their lives often depend on each other.
Something comes up in the field (which became very rare after the first year or so) it's always 'We're busy, so just do this & this because it's necessary, & we'll discuss this when we get back'. First & foremost, Clint & Nat are professionals
I don't see arguing as happening very often, because let's face it, when your life is this intricately involved with someone (I'm talking about straight partnership, no romantic involvement at all) if you don't genuninely get along you don't last very long as a pair, & you certainly don't pull off the kinds of stuff that it's obvious Clint & Natasha have unless you're in sync - which again, doesn't happen if you don't agree on things most of the time anyway.
Squabbling, on the other hand, is not only verbal, but heated. It's for the day-to-day shit, stuff which they each step around most of the time anyway - or just because they're bored! It's more banter than anything else, mostly, but banter between two very dangerous (but never to each other) people.
Sarcasm & inventive insults (especially in other languages) is not only encouraged, it's expected, & they'll sometimes give compliments or even rewards afterward for the best line.
It sometimes happens on missions (especially over comms!), but it's basically the equivalent of two cops giving each other shit over coffee on a stakeout, & only when they're in a solid place personally. When they were all still in the field, Coulson would occasionally interject a comment or two over the comms as well.
When they squabble at home, they tend to squabble to a standstill ("Fine, then!" "Fine!") & work off the pent-up energy with jungle sex. Or they'll occasionally play-fight (rough & tumble wrestling, but no hitting!) until it turns into 'aha! victory is mine! Now you have to give up the remote/clean all my equipment/be my love slave for the rest of the night!'.
(Clint has been known to say things like 'I have you now, my pretty!' Natasha will use phrases like 'Get naked, American scum, and bring me chocolate icecream. I'll decide whether you're worthy to be used as my sexual plaything after you rub my feet.')
(oh, crap, is that a plotbunny I hear hopping towards me?)
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And happy plot bunnies are happy! And they spawn MORE plot bunnies (b/c rabbits are like that.) :D