be_compromised | ATTF: Thor 2 Discussion Post

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ATTF: Thor 2 Discussion Post

Happy Friday, greatest bar! Something a little off topic for today, but still very relevant to our interests. ;)

We are going to talk about Thor: The Dark World! What you liked, what you didn't, where you think Clint and Natasha might have been during all this, now is your chance to discuss it with your fellow bar patrons!

Needless to say, the comments will be a SPOILER ZONE. If you haven't seen Thor 2 and wish to remain unspoiled, please proceed with caution.

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So guys, after you've seen the movie, are you having any theories about Clint's mental health and how Loki's mind control could have affected his brain?

Have you read this response by Kevin Feige?

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/MarvelFreshman/news/?a=89779

"Well, I think we saw that in The Avengers already. We saw the scene where he is with Widow, and he’s coming out of that, and he’s dealing with the repercussions of that. That was sort of it for Hawkeye. Selvig was held in that Loki trance a little bit longer and only popped out at the very, very end, so I think his repercussions [are more significant]. And also, Hawkeye is a field operative of SHIELD. Selvig is a university professor. [Laughs] So they deal with it in different ways. Hawkeye definitely plays a very large part in Age of Ultron. So that’ll be the next place to further evolve the character."

Kinda sounds to me like they didn't give it much thought. :/ But I'm keen to see his role in Age of Ultron.

I had a lot of problems with Selvig's mental problems being played for laughs, but it is giving me some plot bunnies about Clint.

I think he def must have had more time to come to terms with it than that one scene, but I guess Feige is just saying we aren't going to see it. I do get his point about Clint being a SHIELD operative, and just in general a very resilient person.

Yay for plot bunnies!

One of my favorite moments was Selvig's "I better put on my pants." It was hilarious for what it was, but also seemed to be an "Ok, I am affected but going to move on the best I can" and dumping his psyche meds. Aww. I love Selvig.

Also? His relief and joy finding out Loki was dead. Amazing.

For me it was a bit like watching Silver linings playbook - I laughed but I didn't come out of the movie with a conclusion that mental issues are a funny thing. If that makes sense? And yes, agreeing with you - Selving *knows* he's messed up (and knows he should wear pants) but he is not gonna give up and didn't give up, he still helped and I loved that. :)

That would be my theory. Field agents are trained to withstand torture and psychological manipulation and all sorts of stuff, so I don't think he'd have the same kind of PTSD issues Tony -- who's still pretty much a self-taught civilian -- had, or whatever it was Selvig was suffering from (which was NOT any form of PTSD I'm familiar with).

Plus, Clint got to burn off some major energy and rage killing Chitauri, and he got to shoot Loki out of the sky. In his own words, he would probably "sleep better" as a result. Selvig didn't get any of that satisfaction.

Hmm I don't think they did what they did with Selvig without a bigger reason - aka did all of that just to poke fun at him. (Also there is that scene when Clint wakes up, and I always wondered why were all colors messed up). I didn't find Selvig's situation funny, especially when he mentions "I had a god in my head, I wouldn't recommend it". It reminded me a little of things you see in Silver linings playbook - you laugh but you know it's not humor, because the situation is sad at the same time. Not that I'm comparing the two - Selvig's problems are one of the things in Thor 2, Silver linings is a movie about mental illness and how people perceive it.

OH I DID NOT SEE THAT THANK YOU OMG I CALLED IT CALLED IT I TALKED TO PEOPLE ABOUT THAT!! THAT SCENE WHERE COLORS ARE ALL MESSED UP RIGHT AFTER HE WAKES UP I CAAAALEEEEED EEEETTT!

*calms down*

How much I love Feige? I think I love him A LOT. Because yes, Clint is a trained operative, thank you thank youuu and yes, please let him evolve. YES. *gleeful dance*

So can we speculate how it's gonna look like for Clint? I am imagining him with altered perception, noticing patterns he didn't notice before, almost like precognition, which can be a bit creepy for him (and people around him) but... waaah I would LOVE that. So much.

I think that would be fantastic!! And creepy. And awesome! I keep picturing a scene where he is just insanely badass and freaking everyone out (like Tony) by doing something extremely dangerous and painful without fear to save the day.

I don't know how his character is going to evolve and I don't even know what his character IS, really, except low-key, snarky, and has heart.

Oh OH OH!!! Can I sidetrack and talk about something I have always wondered about??? This may have been discussed before. Loki, in the Avengers, tells him, "You have heart." How did he know that? Did he already decide he was going to use Clint b/c he and the aliens did research and knew he would be the best bet getting into SHIELD? How did he know he had heart???

Oooooooh. Good point. that line always sticks out so I'm gonna do some thinky thoughts. Loki, as a villain needs good lines or at least catchy, memorable ones. He had lots in Avengers, so I suppose one of the reasons for that line is - you need to give those to that kind of villain. I think. I'm not a movie expert. I'm just going by things that I appreciate in movies.

But if we consider this as a part of narration - and many details in Avengers were subtle, precise and very deliberate - Loki is god of lies. A god of lies, in order to lie well, needs to read people. He is few thousand years old and has tons of experience on judging people quickly, he sees how Clint reacts and does his math - that guy is reliable, loyal, efficient, and most certainly deadly. It's also possible that Loki, thanks to Tesseract power simply sensed some things. "You have heart" proves to be true later - I mean, Clint wakes up after all that mess, picks himself and his bow up and goes into fight. He wouldn't be able to do that if he didn't have lots of heart. :D

Interesting thoughts! Ok, my "its a movie" thought was just that this is something the movie-makers wanted us to know about Clint, so they had Loki say it as if he had precognition, but really the point was for us to be like "oh, this Hawk-guy has heart."

Your point about reading people quickly is a good one. I hadn't thought about that. I was just thinking they must have been doing background checks before dumping Loki b/c it seemed like he chose the right man for the job.

Heee, thank you! And I think they could ahve, but I don't think Loki actually needs that. He has skills - manipulating others around him even without a magic spear is one of those. remember his scene with Natasha? He didn't get to read through her, but what he did rather spectacularly was use her own fear to scare her. (or try to scare her, depends how you read that scene. i think he did manage to shake her) "To kill you slowly, intimately, like he knows you're afraid of -" I fail to remember the exact quote - he never said WHAT he would have Clint do to Nat. He left it for her to fill in the blanks. He also knew who Natasha was (and she came prepared for him to know that!). So what Loki does - what both Loki and Natasha do - is manipulate one another by using part truth, part lies. You can't lie without knowing the facts. Loki has to know the facts and he has to know them quickly. He can'+t always do research so he has to be cunning - and in Norse mythology, Loki is just that, a cunning trickster god of mischief.

Edited 2013-11-15 21:22 (UTC)

I think Loki saw that Clint had "heart" simply by the way he acted -- first by throwing himself at Fury to get him out of reach of the Glowstick, then he got shot at several times and flung against a wall, but still got up to keep fighting. Loki would know a warrior when he sees one.

Point I was trying to make in many words, lol! But yes, this exactly.

LOL, now I'm kinda wishing Loki said "You have gumption, sonny!"

;)

Well, in the deleted scene Loki asks Clint to tell him "everything he knows" about Fury's team. So i think we can assume pretty safely that he did -- which then jives with Tony's realization that "he hit us all where it hurts" and "it is personal, that's the point."

Someone on tumblr pointed out that we see Loki shadowing Selvig at the end of the first Thor. If Loki is able to watch Earth through Erik, he will have had opportunities to see Clint in action and so may have already judged him as having heart. (This pseudo-possession may also explain why Selvig is hit so darn hard.) :)

I'm worrying (okay, hoping) that we'll see Clint streaking in Age of Ultron. *heh*

BTW, the Cap cameo was WIN.

Ohhhh, yes. I'd actually started something during the summer and put it aside to finish up my marvel_bang (which had been dying on my hard drive from the summer before) but it had both Selvig and Clint trying to deal with Loki. It kinda got dusted off and added to since this weekend, yay!

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ATTF: Thor 2 Discussion Post

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