Discussion Post: Avengers Endgame

[inkvoices]

IT IS TIME.

This is your place to chat and squee about Avengers Endgame! Pease note: UNTIL OTHERWISE STATED THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE WHERE THIS FILM CAN BE DISCUSSED ON BE_COMPROMISED. You know the drill, spoilers are mean.

A few rules:

1) Do understand that this post will be FULL of spoilers in the comments. If you are absolutely against being spoiled then please avoid this post until you've seen the film. It's okay, you can post here whenever you watch the film and keep it active, so you won't be missing out. There is no end date to the squee!

(For people who would like only certain spoilers ie for things you might be anxious about or if you're not able to see it for a while, but don't want allll the spoilers of this post feel free to send me a DM.)

2) Character bashing and ship wars are assassinable offences. We love differences in opinion and discussing all the things, but we also want to keep this bar a positive fandom space. If you think someone might be hurt by something you're about to say then either don't say it or find a better way of putting it. Please keep in mind that we are about the love.

3) HAVE FUN!

Comments

[alphaflyer]

Right, so. I watched it at midnight on April 24, part two of a marathon that started with Infinity War at 9 pm on April 23. The earliest, firstest showing possible without a press pass. My hubby graciously agreed to come with me; we came home at 4 am but that was okay because I took the morning off. So far, so ... normal?

I walked out with my mind blown, and will stay on this thread and squee and weep and rejoice and gush for as long as you guys will have me.

A few random thoughts (incomplete because I need to see it again):

1. I was stunned by what happened to Natasha. Already, there are voices on the internet to the effect "why do they always kill off the females..." Well, statistically speaking and since Gamora comes back and one of the Nebulas survives, she's the only one, against a number of gone-for-good guys (Pietro, Heimdall, Loki, Vision, Tony...) But far more importantly, Natasha's death was no "killing off". This was the ultimate choice and an act of supreme agency, of someone who had become the center of her found family ("I had nothing, until I had this"), to the point where she gave herself to make them whole again. A soul for a soul. Let no one cheapen her journey, her sacrifice and its meaning by calling her death anything else.

2. And yes, I will write a fix it.

3. The little fannish Easter eggs! "That's a far cry from Budapest." (My husband snorted so loud, I missed the next bit of dialogue.) "I knew it." Korg lives!

4. The revisiting of scenes, or going behind them (what happened in between the "arrest" of Loki and his ascent with Thor; so THAT's how HYDRA got the sceptre...

5. The emotional punches just kept coming. Thor getting to see his Mom again. Tony and Howard talking about fatherhood... "Eventually, we become friends. And ... sisters." That phone call from Laura (*cough* good thing Ronin kept Hawkeye's mobile all those years... *cough*). Pepper's final acceptance of who Tony is, and always was: "You can rest now." Cap finally gets his dance. *sniffles*

6. And finally, those endearing, hand-wavy plot holes. How did Valkyrie's winged horse get to Earth??? How come all the time-warped Thanos gang gets dusted, but Gamora 2.0 gets to stay - does the Snap have a filter after all? How many divorces will the sudden return of 3.5 billion people after 5 years cause, and how many will die of hunger because food production has been scaled down by 50%?

I could go on, but there's way too much for one post. Final Verdict: TOTALLY WORTHY.

[thespeedofzoran]

Since Nat dies, the Black Widow movie is definitely a prequel right?

[crystallitanie]

I just came from watching it and what.the.fuck.

More tomorrow, after I get over the shock.

[helishdreams]

I saw it yesterday and I’m .... still in shock?? I’m debating seeing it again over the weekend to condense my thoughts properly.

I think the worst thing is that I absolutely loved it, and (almost) everything made sense with character arcs and Tasha and .... Its not really okay but it all comes full circle and I can’t argue with it. Ughhhhh

I’m hoping they pull some comic nonsense to get her back (a la Tales of Suspense ...) but I’m not too optimistic about that. (I feel like Scarlett doesn’t want to return? Idk but then there’s the maybe BW movie so who knows?)

But but but I loved the time travel (ass of America!), and I have such a soft spot for Tony I loved his whole arc “I am iron man”. I really liked how everything concluded, and wrapped up the movies so far. Like I could walk away from the MCU now and be content with everything.

[brickhousewench]

Argh!!!!! I'm JUST out of the movie and don't quite know how to deal with it.

On the one hand I got the Happy Ending for Cap and Peggy that I so desperately wanted.

On the other hand, I did not get anything like I wanted for Clint and Natasha.

People better be writing some Fix It FanFiction after this. Hell, I might have to get off my butt and write some fixitfic. =(

[lar_laughs]

I saw it without a support staff (aka friends who wouldn't mind me sobbing uncontrollably) so I felt I held in a lot of my feelings during the movie with only a few uncontrollable sobs but my glasses will definitely need a good cleaning tomorrow morning to get the crust of salt off of them!

I lovedLovedLOVED the girl power moment with the lineup of ALL the ladies protecting the stones. I loved the sacrifices and the moments that it felt they gave to all the characters. I had titles running through my head like crazy and so many good ideas for character colorations for the fandom bags I haven't created yet (because I've only got 8 done so that leaves me like THREE THOUSAND more).

I think I'm going again Saturday and then again next week sometime. Definitely a few more times in the theater so I can cram all of it in my memory banks! If we don't stop watching, it won't be the end. I'm looking forward to Phase 4 but... I don't think I"m ready to let go just yet.

And Cap... what a silver fox!

What a journey this has been!

[crystallitanie]

OK, now I've processed things a bit, and I've also managed to sort out my messy feelings, which yesterday night were basically a huge skein of denial.

I loved it and hated it at the same time.

Loved it, because it was everything it should be: quick and smart and funny and just the right side of complicated, and it had everything it should have: battle and drama and heroics and the necessary comic relief.

But I hated it for Natasha. God, how I hated that ending.

To make myself clear: I think that this was the ideal ending for her character, given the arc that was kicked off with Joss Whedon's horrific choices in AoU. I would hate for Natasha to serve as Clint's consolation prize, and I would also hate for her character not to receive a "full circle" like Tony's and Steve's did. But I have to admit that seeing Laura Barton alive and well at the final scenes of the movie, while Natasha's body was rotting at Vormir, kind of made me mad (even more so because Laura was a totally unnecessary piece of canon, born out of a director's narcissistic need to somehow differentiate himself - well congrats Joss, you sure differentiated yourself by producing MCU's worse movie by far). I wanted my girl alive and happy and walking off into the sunset with her man, so sue me.

So while I think that the Russo brothers did the best they could with the mess they inherited from Whedon and AoU, I still didn't like the ending, because I didn't like that character arc for Natasha to begin with.

Anyway. (sighs)

Once more we chose a late night screening, which meant that the theater was full of nerds and aficionados who cried when Tony died and laughed their asses off with the Lebowski references, and isn't it amazing when one hundred strangers are connected with something?

Also: what the hell happened in Budapest. If there's ever a Black Widow prequel, I really hope it will give us some answers.

The end of an era, guys! Now I'm gonna need many, and I mean a very great deal of many, fix-it fics.

[happilydancing]

Hi friends, new and old!!! I’m back thanks to alphaflyer pointing me in this direction! I’m on my cell and it took awhile for me to set up an account here for some reason. At any rate...

WHAT A MOVIE!!!! It was so much of everything jam packed into one. Still trying to sort out my feelings. Overall I really enjoyed the movie, I was laughing almost nonstop. Except you know. The tragic parts. I didn’t take AoU very well back in the day but I handled EG much better. I gained a lot of perspective on the interests of the filmmakers, the interests of the fans, and the crazy place it connects and separates. All of this is to say that for me, the films themselves are just a jumping off point for my love of these characters. But the true effect is what is going on in my head. That’s the “reality” of these characters and stories for me, and that is affected by the script, the actors, fanfic, discussion amongst fellow fans, and what my brain and heart deem worthy to embrace. And holy hell. This was THE MOST CLINTASHA film ever, which is quite the feat after the first Avengers . Their love was focused on and palpable and god I love them so much. Would *I* have preferred a different conclusion? Yes of course. But I also know the filmmakers were looking so closely at the characters and storylines and where they have come from and what would be the most compelling “ends” for all of them- and you know what? They are making the movies and not me. But man oh man, did they give me A LOT to work with in my enjoyment of these characters and headcanon fodder and I cannot wait to read all the glorious fix-it fics that will result!

Also? I totally don’t think Natasha is permanently dead. Like she may be but these are comic book movies. Loki and Steve both broke the timeline. Steve returned the soul stone. Just... weirdness in general.

General EG comment- I both loved and thought the fanservice was too much. They referenced all the films and all the little moments and it was great but after awhile.... like we get it. It’s the end of an era. But I feel like the film was too self-aware of what it was.

SUPER CURIOUS about the BW movie and the tv shows- a lot of “deceased” characters getting more screen time. All prequels? Or alternate timelines?? 🤔

[lar_laughs]

Did anyone else notice the kid standing alone at the funeral? I know it wasn't just me because the internet has informed me that it's the kid from Iron Man 2! I'd heard something about him potentially being part of Phase 4 so I love that he was in this movie. I'd thought that maybe they'd forgotten about him (or conveniently pushed his character under the rug) since the Stark & Peter relationship turned into such a mentorship.

And I adore even more that he was standing alone. As far as fandom is concerned, at this point in time, no friendships have been formed. No bonds have been made. He's just a kid. Standing alone at the funeral of a mentor. Feeling things. Seeing the community that surrounded Stark.

Title: Found

[lar_laughs]

A snippet of a moment that I needed to see. Not beta'd because mine hasn't seen the movie yet.
No rating, no warnings.

Title: Found
Word Count: approx 700
She told him there would be redemption. Not in so many words, but that’s what Clint held onto during the flight back to New York. He hadn’t been in the States for years, choosing to right the wrongs in other places that didn’t have a base of operations for Earth’s Mightest Heroes. All he’d cared about was finding a wrong and righting it.

Funny thing was, as much as he distanced himself from his old group of friends, the closer he got to them. There were whispers about the work they were doing all around the world and he ran into them constantly. The word “Avenger” still brought hope with it, no matter the state the world was in.

“Are you one of them?” a grateful woman has asked, holding her bleeding child close because he was safe at home and not fodder for some foolish man’s dream of dominating the weak around him. “Are you one of the Avengers?”

“Just helping out where and when I can,” he’d answered, gruffer than usual. Kids always got him down deep where he’d pushed all his feelings. His memories. His might-have-beens.

She hadn’t looked like she believed him. It was the first time he’d given out a name, hoping to dissuade the villagers from thinking he was anything special. Ronin had just been at the tip of his tongue, coupled with a fleeting memory of a long-ago movie night with Nat curled up beside him with her usual non-stop commentary and a bowl of over-buttered popcorn. There was meaning behind the name that he didn’t think anyone else got in that dusty village.

The silence between them on the flight had gotten heavy with unspoken words and complicated emotions. Just when he thought he might jump out of his seat and race for one of the exits, Nat had turned to him with her lopsided grin like nothing had put a distance between them. “Ronin? Really?”

“You heard about that?” It wasn’t really a question. Of course, she’d found out the name. He knew that she would. The part of him that had hated hiding from her (because he knew this whole five-year long ordeal had been about hiding from his oldest friend and not because he’d been yearning to work alone) had known she would recognize the name and would come looking for him.

He had wanted her to make it better but had known that she couldn’t and hadn’t been been ready for the consequences of watching her fail him.

“Of course, I heard about it, Clint. Everyone heard about it. It was just a matter of getting one step ahead of the shadow.” The hurt was thick in her voice again but her eyes were clear. She wasn’t looking guilty or sad or hopeful. God, he didn’t think he could look at her again if she was going to look hopeful. He was no one’s answer to anything right now.

“I needed to,” he didn’t want to say it out loud, knowing that it would only disappoint her but he couldn’t stop the words from spilling out, “hurt people.”

“Did it help?”

He thought she might try to absolve him. Tell him it was okay. But he’d forgotten that she was the Black Widow who knew all about red in ledgers and needing to find outlets for pain when it seeped out from the hidden places.

“No.”

“It never does. But neither does trying to help people. Pain has to work itself out without any help or hindrance from us.”

“Who,” he began to ask but then thought better of it. He didn’t want to know who was left. It didn’t matter. What was done, was done. He couldn’t take mourning more people. Instead, he shook his head and started over again, “I like the ombre thing you’ve got going on.”

She fingered the end of her braid. “I hated the blonde. It was a reminder of having to hide. But I also didn’t want to forget that I’d been hiding. It seemed important to hold onto a reminder that some things got better.”

His jaw clenched but he held in the immediate retort. She noticed and looked away, probably thinking his anger was her fault. It was only his fault, though. He hadn’t done enough while they’d been alive. If he’d been there, there would have been purple-people blood dripping from an arrow on his mantle and the world would have been safe. If, if, if, if, if...

“I’m glad you found me.” His voice was soft but he could tell from the way her body softened that she heard him.

Her hand found his again. “I’m glad you let yourself be found.”

[sorcer3sssupreme]

I don't really know if I want to talk about my feelings about the movie because I was already up until 6am last night ranting to a friend but...

I have a lot of fics I'm now suddenly working on and no matter what, I'm happy with that outcome :)

[budapest_by_blimp]

I am so not okay.

If anyone has any comfort fics to rec, please do.

[sgteam14283]

Pretty much everyone has brought up my problems with the movie so I'll focus on what I liked about it.

The scene in Tokyo where Natasha saw how broken Clint was, that the loss of the Farm Family destroyed him and the only way he could cope with the loss was going after bad guys who had guns with a sword. That Natasha finally showing up meant there was hope and he didn't want to give in to it.

Natasha saw Clint and knew that if he kept going down this road it would only lead to more heartbreak on her side. But she was giving him a different choice, like he'd done all those years ago.

Also that it was Clint and Natasha at the end, because Clint was Natasha's family before anyone else.

And since I live in Chicago (where putting ketchup on a hot dog is considered a Mortal Sin), when Nate said that's what he wanted on his hot dog it got a solid laugh from the crowd.

[bettybackintheday]

So I’m intentionally late to this party. I saw EG on Thursday night and am just now able to be coherent about it without crying. I loved it. Of course I’m devastated at the loss of Nat and Tony. But without Nat’s ultimate sacrifice, Thanos wins. I don’t think she could live with herself knowing she could’ve saved trillions of lives. And certainly not with letting Clint take the fall. Her ledger is clean. That was her quest and she achieved it on her terms.

That said, I hate that she’s gone. HATE it. I’ve gone from camping out along that river in Egypt to building a permanent residence there. I need all the Clintasha fix-it fic. All of it!! Can we have a prompt-a-thon dedicated to fix it fic??

Thanks to the best bar for being there and helping us adjust to the new canon and allowing us to bask in the best of times past.

[inkvoices]

I found this interesting post from matts avocados on tumblr:

I HAVE A HOT TAKE ABOUT THE SOUL STONE SCENE

WE all know that it’s Natasha sacrificing herself, not Clint sacrificing Natasha. And I don’t think the soul stone can be “tricked” per se. That is, it doesn’t believe that Clint sacrificed natasha, just as we know that isn’t the case.

By sacrificing herself Natasha “loses that which she loves the most” - her family, the avengers. It wouldn’t have worked if Clint jumped because: Natasha isn’t the one sacrificing him, and the avengers are not the ones he loves the most. But they are to nat. It had to be her of all 6 of them. Of all of them, the avengers mean the most to natasha.

[kiss_me_cassie]

I just came back from seeing the movie the first time and I'm still very tender and raw... hoping you all can make me feel a little more whole. ::wibble::