OK, now I've processed things a bit, and I've also managed to sort out my messy feelings, which yesterday night were basically a huge skein of denial.

I loved it and hated it at the same time.

Loved it, because it was everything it should be: quick and smart and funny and just the right side of complicated, and it had everything it should have: battle and drama and heroics and the necessary comic relief.

But I hated it for Natasha. God, how I hated that ending.

To make myself clear: I think that this was the ideal ending for her character, given the arc that was kicked off with Joss Whedon's horrific choices in AoU. I would hate for Natasha to serve as Clint's consolation prize, and I would also hate for her character not to receive a "full circle" like Tony's and Steve's did. But I have to admit that seeing Laura Barton alive and well at the final scenes of the movie, while Natasha's body was rotting at Vormir, kind of made me mad (even more so because Laura was a totally unnecessary piece of canon, born out of a director's narcissistic need to somehow differentiate himself - well congrats Joss, you sure differentiated yourself by producing MCU's worse movie by far). I wanted my girl alive and happy and walking off into the sunset with her man, so sue me.

So while I think that the Russo brothers did the best they could with the mess they inherited from Whedon and AoU, I still didn't like the ending, because I didn't like that character arc for Natasha to begin with.

Anyway. (sighs)

Once more we chose a late night screening, which meant that the theater was full of nerds and aficionados who cried when Tony died and laughed their asses off with the Lebowski references, and isn't it amazing when one hundred strangers are connected with something?

Also: what the hell happened in Budapest. If there's ever a Black Widow prequel, I really hope it will give us some answers.

The end of an era, guys! Now I'm gonna need many, and I mean a very great deal of many, fix-it fics.

Edited 2019-04-26 03:12 pm (UTC)

But I hated it for Natasha. God, how I hated that ending.

I really think that, more than anyone, Nat deserved the chance to fight alongside the rest of the Avengers in the final battle. In many ways, she's the link between many of the Avengers (she recruits Stark and Banner, she's already partnered with Barton, she works beside Steve in Winter Soldier). She's clearly someone that Fury trusts. She's also the one who has been holding down the fort at Avengers HQ during End Game. Having her end up being killed off to give the rest of the team emotional pain is just a waste of a perfectly good character.

What I think would have been the PERFECT end for her story arch of redemption would have been to have Nat be the one who picks up Thor's hammer. Because 1) she can lift Mjölnir in comics canon and 2) what better way to show that she'd repaid her debt than to be "worthy"?

THIS THIS THIS THIS

I get that she's like the "heart" of the Avengers so killing Clint on Vormir (*assuming* that for some reason it *had* to be Nat and Clint who went there (which, imho, it absolutely DID NOT need to be)) wouldn't have nearly as much emotional impact but.......... like how was no one in the writers room for this like "hey are we seriously writing ANOTHER dead woman to motivate a group of men? why are these men not already motivated without her death given 50% of the population is wiped out"?

It was SUCH A SLAP IN THE FACE to not have Natasha pick up Thor's hammer and be in the rad ladies line up, imho.

Ugh. I'm just... so mad.

Anyway, yeah, I'm working on like 5 different fics already about how I want her to come back/how she never died in the first place.

It really hurts. But I kinda admire the writing and all those years of films, because damn them but they've hit me right in the feels.

I do think though that of all the surviving Avengers at that point who could team up and go to Vormir and lose someone that they love as a soul for a soul...I think that speaks to how strong their relationship is. They love each other. Could it have been any other two Avengers? Steve and Nat as friends. Bruce and Nat with Bruce's crush on her. Tony and Bruce as science bros. Tony and Rhodey. All would have hurt but I don't know if they would hae worked this well? I appreciate the acknowledgement of how strong (and equal) their relationship is.

And Nat's hero arc. And as Peggy said to Steve years ago about Bucky, granting her the dignity of her choice. And Nat saving Clint's life. And the owe him a debt echoes and all.

I get the killing off of a woman issue (which if the original team had been more diverse in the first place wouldn't have been as obvious *grumble*). I think the guys were already motivated though and it was more of a we miss her but let's make her sacrifice worth it and finish this? I mean,they were already motivated for a time heist. For me when Okoye says 'she has help' in the ladies line up at the end that echoed Nat's 'she's not alone' moment in IW for me and I felt like that line up was Nat's legacy, in the fight and in the films. That we get all of these ladies. But it made me nore upset I think that Nat was a mid film shock and didn't get the end unlike Tony.

Luckily my film support buddy is a Loki fan so she got to pay me and my weepy self back for all the comfort i've given her for the more than once that her fave died! Feeeeels.

Well, that whole "which partners would you have sent" doesn't really ring true since they don't seem to know that the stone demands a soul sacrifice. Nebula seems to have left that piece of knowledge out? Because if they did, surely it would have informed their discussions. (Chalk that one up to a plot hole...)

All this to say, I am working on a fixit for that whole soul stone thing, because it doesn't make sense in many other ways.

Well no, but I meant from a writing point of view rather than the Avengers putting teams together.

And I don't think Nebula knew? Thanos didn't tell her what happened but he came back without Gamora so just assumes he killed Gamora on Vormir. I think?

Ah, yes, That all makes sense.

I thought initially when they (I forget who) said they all had some experience with some of the stones, they'd send Clint for the Mind Stone given his rather intimate association with it. But in the end, apart from Thor going to Asgard and Nebula into space for the purple one, it seems to have come down to a bit of a lottery - I mean, all Bruce has in common with the Time Stone is the colour.

My cinema buddy's theory was that Steve and Tony had to do New York because they could use the power of being who they are there - ie people might listen to Stark and Cap. Bot sure about the rest. I mean Thor in Asgard makes sense, Nebula and Rocket on other planets makes sense and less likely to stick out, Bruce at a time when Hulk wouldn't stick out I guess since being green is now permenant...I guess the others got what was left?

*assuming* that for some reason it *had* to be Nat and Clint who went there (which, imho, it absolutely DID NOT need to be)

Looking at who else was left, the only other pair that could have gone after the Soul Stone were Stark and Rhodes. And I would have happily thrown Rhodie into the pit if it meant we got to keep Natasha.

Which would be your chatacter of colour and disabled character so also problematic :/ And he's not one of the original six. Who would you have partnered him with? I think Tony if you want two people who love each other, meaning no Tony at the Tower or in 1970, but yeah, that would have hurt and had impact.

Which would be your chatacter of colour and disabled character so also problematic

Bah! I hadn't thought of that. =( You're right, that would be a huge problem.

I'm just less attached to Rhodie than I am to Natasha.

I was actually thinking, given the focus of the film on Nebula (who absolutely deserved it, I loved getting to spend more time with her), it could have been Nebula and Rocket.... It could have made a ton of sense that she didn't seem to have told anyone else what needed to happen on Vormir then, too, if she was like "I need to do this myself". PLUS omg her finally admitting that she cares for the rest of the Guardians ;m;

That would have been interesting! Would it have been Nebula getting rid of Rocket, proving she likes him, or would Rocket have to admit he cared about Nebula and she decides to do it herself?

Edited 2019-05-17 04:06 pm (UTC)

oh wow I didn't think of the possibility of Rocket doing the same _@ aaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA this just got so much better/more heartbreaking TTmTT

I've said it before (including above), reducing Natasha's sacrifice to the "another dead woman" meme kind of cheapens her sacrifice, and her agency in it. I also don't think motivation was an issue, since the disappearance of 3.5 billion people is what sent everyone out there to collect the stones in the first place.

But yeah, I hated her death and am working on fixing it in fic, but at the same time for me it made sense and honoured her character.

It was ABSOLUTELY contrived that Nat and Clint just had to be the ones to go to Vormir, yeah. They might as well have written "NATASHA IS GOING TO DIE" in giant letters on the screen. (I knew she was doomed when she said "I had nothing, and then I got this family" in the trailers.) Even if there's no giant plot hole about what Nebula knew/didn't know and did/didn't tell them, the team sent their two non-powered human members into a total black box mystical whatever situation they knew nothing about? It was ridiculous.

omg I didn't even think of that angle but YES!!! lol

"Let's send the two non-powered, 0 space experienced people.... into space.... alone" ooooookay.....

As soon as Nebula's Nebula!wifi got hacked, I assumed that they were going to need to do another time travel loop (using all the extra particles Steve/Tony stole.. or like, the time stone, OR the gauntlet itself) to get the heist "right" this time. And then I was floored when they didn't XD I guess they just... gave up.

Yeah, I was all set to love the movie until I was spoiled about Nat's fate, and I'm really angry about it. (I honestly don't think it honours her character or that it's a decent ending for her, but most people here seem okay with it so I'm not going to raeg about it.)

I'm really sorry you got spoiled :/

Not a problem if you want to chat here about not liking the writing of the film, or Natasha's plotline, or anything at all. We like different viewpoints! (Just no character or ship bashing, or anything that might hurt someone else. Debate and discussionr rather than ranting.)

I don't think it'd say I'm okay with it. I guess... i'm okay that that the film we've got mostly fits into what came before and works as an ending for me? And I can play around with how I interpret it - for me I can go with Nat having a hero arc throughout the films - but for me Endgame isn't the best written film, nope. (I still think Winter Solider is the best written for plot.)