ATTF: Sir Gawain and the Labyrinth (or, headcanons and where to find them)

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

Hello folks, I am apologizing for (relative) lateness of this post – I had a long day and writing this thing required some thinking and concentration on my part. Our topic today is something we often mention here – headcanons. My first post to this comm (as I recall, very fondly) was a question about Clint's canon background, and I remember, very clearly, a lovely bunch of people giving me very kind answers that there are, in fact, different canons in comics, that we don't know a lot about MCU Clint and that I'm free to pick what I like and run with it, because it's completely cool. It proved to be true, also this comm proved to accept different approaches to our favorite characters, and that people here are very open to various interpretations of Clint and Natasha and the nature of our relationship. As a new fan and new fic writer (for this couple) I didn't have a detailed, exact ideas about who Clint and Nat are, and what they're like. Just that they were awesome and badass and had incredible chemistry and wanted to know more about them. The people who taught me are – all of you.

I can pinpoint a certain “point in origin” for my learning - when I started to write my own fic(s), I was a lurker here, and mostly read discussions and things. The second story I read was “Of Languages” (funnily, I don't remember the first one; but “Of Languages” was second, I'm certain of that) and I think it laid ground for my own characterizations of entire team, not just Clint and Natasha. I know I read bunch of meta, and later, discussed things with many wonderful people here, and I don't want to single out anyone for two reasons. One, I don't remember everyone who influenced me with their ideas, and two, I really don't want anyone to feel “left behind/left out”. What's so amazing about this comm is the feeling of community that discusses, creates and is willing to share (their own views and ideas) and accepting new members and their (new) ideas. The point of this post is to invite you all to share your headcanon(s) and swap them with your fellow members.

For me headcanons are somewhat like a map – bunch of my own views (imagined facts, imagined, because they're my ideas and opinions) about our characters, their personalities, their pasts, their motivations etc. I'll try to do a comprehensive and hopefully not too long list of them, and I invite you to comment, discuss and share your own ideas :)

*difficult childhoods – it's one thing that's mutual to Natasha and Clint, you could say a first parallel between them – they're both orphaned children who ended up in hands of not very good people and had to fight for their own survival since then. I imagine Nat was taken by the Red Room when she was ten or eleven – I have an impression that many people imagine she was younger, but I like to think she had a normal childhood and loving parents through earliest, formative years. Without that (without experiencing genuine love, care and a healthy connection to someone) she wouldn't be able to recover from everything that Red Room did to her. As for Clint, I imagine he also had people he was able to connect to – that his mother was loving and tried to protect him and his brother the best she could, that some, if not many, foster parents weren't so bad (something I actually know from experience), that there were positive role models in circus, military and finally in SHIELD.

*personalities and therapy – I believe both had to go through therapy after their rough pasts (just as Clint needs it after Loki, as it is very likely for him to develop PTSD or at least post traumatic stress reaction). When I talk about personalities, I mostly think of Natasha – I don't think the meaning of “being unmade” means having her own personality completely deleted and turned into a blank slate. In real world, that's a very difficult thing to do, if not completely impossible. Also, had her personality been completely erased, there would be nothing left to reclaim. This is a further reason why I believe she wasn't a tiny kidlet when RR took her – ten or eleven is young enough to be influenced, conditioned and trained (to act and believe the things they order her to, so she'd stay alive); but also, it gives her a basis she can go back to once she decides she doesn't want to spend her life like someone's killing puppet. As for Clint, I believe he worked through most of his issues at the point when he met Natasha, and thus, he was able to be a steady companion, fellow agent, partner and friend, when she needed that stability. Which leads me to

*empathy – and the fact that both need it in order not to become unpredictable sociopaths. (SHIELD, or any organization, needs loyal members. Sociopaths and psychopaths lack the loyalty mechanism, and can't be trusted or counted upon). Clint doesn't shoot Natasha because of empathy, IMO – because he sees himself in her, his younger self looking for a way out of entire mess her life has become since she let RR and tried to settle the score with them and do some kind of warped justice. He also recognizes the basic empathy in her, while he follows her and learns about her through her actions; that's why he makes the different call – yes she is amazing and she has the skillset SHIELD could really use, but she also has the potential that's preserved in her empathy (which is why I can't subscribe to “Natasha is unkind” point of view. She is kind to people she's loyal to, but her loyalty is selective and hard won. Just as Clint's is.)

*knowing your own darnkess – basically comes down to dealing with their own issues. It's an ongoing process for both of them, but I tend to see Clint as the more steady (for me, he is the earth, and Natasha is the water). Both can be scary and destructive, but when combined, they can create amazing things. (Also, I tend to think of post – Loki Clint as cracked earth injured by earthquake; and Natasha, being the water, is able to wash away the rough edges – aka help him heal.) I was told this particular take on Nat and Clint is pretty kind? It's how I roll, I like providing my characters with chances for stability and normal-ish lives.

*trust – is a crucial thing between them. I believe that, in order to achieve this, Clint treats her with respect for her boundaries in her beginner days at SHIELD; that he treats her with honesty, and also with no fear. It's a new experience for her, considering what her life was like all through Red Room and after – she wasn't able to rely on anyone or truly trust anyone, because everything was unsafe and everything was a possible means to her own end. Clint is one of new people who treat her without ulterior motives, but also, he offers to be her friend, and she slowly learns to let him in and drop her guard, because he's proven, over and over, that he won't hurt her (not in physical, but in emotional sense). Trust is crucial, I believe, for them becoming SHIELD's strike team – their employers would pair them as partners only after they're certain they can work tohether, they trust each other and rely on each other. And that leads me to

*intimacy and consent – when they reach the point of becoming intimate, Clint is careful to follow her lead and respect her boundaries (again). When we're talking about smut fics, I'm a huge fan of enthusiastic consent; I subscribe to the school of “Natasha didn't have many (or any) genuine experiences before Clint” which is another fascinating area for them to explore. Ultimately, intimacy consists of trust, friendship and not being afraid to be yourself with that other (special) person, and it's an amazing contrast with two characters who lead this kind of lifestyle. I love when they're able to be genuine, gentle and caring around each other.

*mythology parallels – finally, I had a kick with this one. Finding parallels for Natasha wasn't very difficult; I find she is more or less typical manifestation of Persephone (and I apologize for my very basic interpretation – it's mostly the language barrier, not my lack of understanding or knowledge about the myth) – basically, a young woman who was kidnapped and taken into darkness (underground); she emerges strong, and she has also mastered that darkness and learned her way around. However I love the idea of Natasha as Minotaur, labyrinth and the labyrinth's keeper all at the same time – she is the mysterious, ever shifting landscape of the labyrinth, capable of changing personae, she is the death waiting inside that intriguing trap, but she is also the person wrapped and hidden underneath that image (and beyond “Black Widow”). I played with this idea a lot in my fics. Finding a mythology parallel for Clint was a bit more difficult, since he is treated like a supporting character in MCU – however I find arthurian Sir Gawain amazingly fitting. Depending on the version/story/a legend, Sir Gawain is portrayed differently (one could say, he suffers from characterization inconsistencies, much like Clint across comic!verse.) But, traits which are ascribed to him most often are chivalry, loyalty (to superior knights, or, in some legends, his uncle, King Arthur); bravery. He is a great warrior, and most of the time a honorable person. Also, Gawain is a background player most of the time – well liked knight, yes, but often, in modern legends, he doesn't take the front and center role. What fascinates me about Gawain the most is the legend about Sir Gawain and Lady Ragnell – in order to save his uncle, King Arthur, Gawain agrees to marry a loathy lady, Lady Ragnell. Despite her unattractive appearance, Gawain decides to treat his new bride as he would if she were desirable, and at that moment her true looks are revealed – she is beautiful, but cursed to look incredibly unappealing. She tells him then he can choose if he prefers her to be beautiful during the day (in front of others) or during the night (when they’re alone in their chambers). Gawain gives her sovereignty (the point of this legend is that what women want the most is sovereignty, aka, to be able to make their own decisions – something King Arthur learns, but Sir Gawain doesn't know of)– the chance to make her own decision; which breaks the spell for good, and she remains beautiful day and night. There are several ways to interpret this legend, however, one of the reasons I like Gawain as the mythic representation of Clint Barton is the fact that he allows Ragnell this freedom to choose – something I find very, very important in Clint's way of treating Natasha.

Long post was long! I hope I didn't make your eyes cross! Share, comment, discuss and have fun!

Comments

[shenshen77.livejournal.com]

My, you weren't kidding when you ended this with long post is long ;) But I really enjoyed it, I find that I share a lot of your headcanon.

They both certainly share the difficult childhood, no real family beyond a very young age. In the movie Natasha tells Bruce that she as the same age as the little girl she employed in her scam to get him to come to her. So I would think that she was younger than 10 when RR took her. But I like your explanation as to why you think she would have had to be older. And Clint definitely had good role models somewhere, also an inherent will to be good. Although he took the circuitous route to get there ;)

I also love the analogy of Clint being earth and Nat being water (I know we discussed this already in some ATTF in December), and I think they really do nurture each other, make each other whole.

And I totally agree on the empathy, both are empathetic people. Nat has to be in order to get an emotional reaction from her marks. And Clint isn't just a finger pulling a trigger, he makes his own calls, he has a mind of his own.

I agree on the trust, I mean there is something like trust won under fire. But I also see them as having learned to trust each other during Nat's training. It was a slow process and it worked out well in the end. As everything with these two is slow when it comes to the emotional part. Both are scarred and wary in my eyes, they would need space to let things progress. Again, nurturing comes to mind. They feed off of each other, learning steadily.

I love the Clint mythology you have going there, it is beautiful! And I can see the parallels. I don't have any mythological roles in mind for these two, but I can see how you came up with yours :)

Other than that, I believe Clint said "I love you" first, but Natasha initiated the first kiss :)

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

Re what Natasha told Bruce - yeah, possible, but it's also possible that she lied or didn't tell him the exact truth. (Spy and manipulator, anyone?) My own headcanon makes sense to me (basics of development psychology); which is why I run with it, but by all means, I like hearing and seeing different takes... and sometimes trying them out and playing with different versions than my default ones. But, when I say if she didn't have a developed personality and learned basic things like trust (and love) in her early age, she would have nothing to reclaim. (My own professional training is something I can't handwave). The age of ten is something I picked, as psychology isn't hard science and you can't measure someone's personality in inches and say this is where something ends and something else begins. But... secure attachment, trust, unconditional love, those are basic requirements for a healthy personality, or a semblance of it/chances of recovery, if you survived some kind of trauma.

Of course, if you don't want Nat to have a healthy, stable personality, that's a whole different game. I prefer her mostly healthy.

Also.... if Nat didn't have emotions, if she didn't know her own emotions, didn't know how to govern and control them, she would never be a master spy. Also, Clint, I can't see a brash personality, short fuse and being a sniper. Also.... I can't see Clint as just being a guard dog, or a kill switch/someone who pulls the trigger. In the movie he obviously has a brain (Doors open from both sides, they DO), and if he made that different call and let Natasha live, he saw something that deserved to live in her. I.... don't see how something like that can be seen, without basic empathy.

I agree on the trust, I mean there is something like trust won under fire. But I also see them as having learned to trust each other during Nat's training. It was a slow process and it worked out well in the end. As everything with these two is slow when it comes to the emotional part. Both are scarred and wary in my eyes, they would need space to let things progress. Again, nurturing comes to mind. They feed off of each other, learning steadily.

YES. And I particularly love "They feed off each other" (but it's a consensual process, they allow it) and OMG. OMG. ALL THE FEELS THAT THIS GIVES ME!!!!!!


Other than that, I believe Clint said "I love you" first, but Natasha initiated the first kiss :)


YEEEEEEEES THIS!

[alphaflyer.livejournal.com]

Comment crash! Can't be too long or too thinky (too much beach and sun getting into my brain) but I think we do share quite a bit of head canon here. I agree with Shen about the age -- judging by the little girls I saw begging in India that looked like the one in the movie, I'd say she is about 7 or 8. Some stuff I've seen (not sure whether it was comic-based) had Natasha be recruited by RR at around 6, so that fits. It certainly fits with my HC.

My HC concerning Clint's childhood is as set out in "Warmth" and "Five Times Clint Barton Loses His Train of Thought". So -- death of parents around 6, shunted around "the system" for 3-4 years, joined the circus at about 10 years old and left it at around 18.

Not so sure on the Earth/Water image. It's lovely, but I see Natasha as fire, if anything (maybe that's a hair cliche -- sue me ...) ;-) I also don't see any mythology parallels or need to find them. Sir Gawain? I think you lose me on two point five of the knightly virtues for Clint : beneficence boundless -- maybe; brotherly love -- check (but not for his brother); a pure mind (uh-uh, no way, he's Hawkeye! maybe undercover ...?); and manners that none can impair (uh-uh; see previous); and compassion, most precious (check).

My head canon has them NOT be a couple until post-Loki (see "Going to Ground") but realize how they feel about/need/complement each other in the aftermath. Trust? Absolutely. A fundamental part of who they are to each other even before they get together (since I'm on a roll about citing/pimping my own stuff here, see "Bound" and "In the Service").

So, yeah -- by and large we're on the same wavelength, with some (minor) exceptions. :-)

[shenshen77.livejournal.com]

Yes, I see where you're coming from with the age. And of course she could have lied, manipulative manipulator that she is ;) And yes, it would make sense for her to have a developed personality already before being taken. Because she has to come back to something as you said. I just see her as kind of an old soul, she would have a pretty much formed personality from an early age. But that is just me, I honestly never really thought about how old she was, just that she was young :) And dude, I SO want a mostly healthy Nat!

I absolutely agree on your view of Clint here. As I said before, he does have empathy, brains and a heart. He is calm when on the job, he has to be. I think Nat called him "her rock" in Breathe and that fits with my headcanon. But that's just me :)

YES. And I particularly love "They feed off each other" (but it's a consensual process, they allow it) and OMG. OMG. ALL THE FEELS THAT THIS GIVES ME!!!!!!
Exactly, it is the mutuality of that sentiment that makes it work for me.

And I just lol'ed at that last statement :D And I also firmly believe that that much sexual tension won't take years and years to resolve. Which is also why they end up as more than friends and partners within less than two years in all of my fics, my takes on them :D But who knows, that might change with the next one, you never know.

And that's another thing I love so much about these two, they work in all kinds of different scenarios. And there are so many talented writers out there who all have their own take on them. And if it's well written I'll read anything, no matter how far the characterization is from my own. If it is written believably, I'll give it a go :D

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Dude, I think my favorite thing about headcanons around here is how we all seem to freely borrow from each other all the time and yet, I don't really ever get a hivemind sense of limitation. Everyone seems to have very well developed and unique approaches to the characterization and the backstories. It's what makes reading fic for this ship so interesting; there's always such wonderful variety to be had. <3

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

We definitely borrow from each other, yes, and I ahven't been in a fandom-place where mutual borrowing was like this so. I really enjoyed creating this post! I too love seeing all the different versions and backstories and it's even more awesome how they work out. We're a creative bunch!

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

It's really awesome b/c we seem to kind of spur each other on to do more stuff. Conversations happen and ideas are had and people run with it and fic ensues. It's a pretty good system. ;)

[sugar-fey.livejournal.com]

Yes, this! I have my own headcanon, but I love seeing other people's takes on the characters. I dislike the idea that there is One True Characterisation. The way I see it, if the characterisation is in the realm of possibility for what we see of the characters on screen, and the writing is good enough to convince me, I'll enjoy a fic even if the characterisation is different to how I personally view the characters.

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

Dude, this, so much! I had this happen to me so many times (characterization and backstory different than mine, but well done) --- I love when people play with the possibilities and reinterpret these characters and give them new lives. And also interaction between people, sharing ideas and shaping each other's ideas - that's what fandom is, for me. <333!!!!

[enigma731.livejournal.com]

This is a really timely post, because I'm that new member who's currently trying to construct my own head canon so I can start writing fic. I got into the fandom/ship about three weeks ago (although I did see the movie in theaters and totally had feels then, it just took a rather serendipitous turn of events to make me realize my full on OMG MUST WRITE FIC feels) and I have to say, I've been so impressed by everyone and everything I've seen in my lurking here and on tumblr. I love everything you've said in this post and can't wait to see the discussion.

Also, you know, hi and stuff. :p (And I know I need proper icons, forgive me.)

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

Hi! And welcome! And omg!!! NEW PEOPLESSS!!!!

There are icons around here, yes, and interesting discussion posts, and bunch of fics and people are really helpful with things when you first start writing. I hope this post can give you some kind of intro - and mind you, this is my take, my opinions and opinions are not facts. Do check out the comm and our other Friday discussions - there are great things to be read!!! And WELCOME AGAIN!!!!

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Just jumping in to say WELCOME! And it's so wonderful to have you! :D

[sugar-fey.livejournal.com]

Hello, nice to see you here! Welcome to the bar.

[slytheringurrl.livejournal.com]

I am also new here, I discovered this ship after lurking over at Pepper/Tony stuff. I really like your headcanon and I agree with many points :)

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

HEEEEEEY! Hello! Welcome!!!! *waves* So glad you de-lurked here :D And thank you :) :)

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

**waves**

Also jumping in to say welcome! We're so glad to have you! This is such a great ship/fandom/people/bar; not that I'm biased or anything. ;)

[shenshen77.livejournal.com]

Yes, welcome to the bar! Grab a seat and join the discussion :D And I love Pepper/Tony, they are my other OTP :D

[enigma731.livejournal.com]

I imagine Nat was taken by the Red Room when she was ten or eleven – I have an impression that many people imagine she was younger, but I like to think she had a normal childhood and loving parents through earliest, formative years. Without that (without experiencing genuine love, care and a healthy connection to someone) she wouldn't be able to recover from everything that Red Room did to her.

Jumping back in here to say that I have psychology training too, so I kind of look at everything character-wise through that filter, and yesss. I hadn't really considered the age question yet, but I have been playing in my head a lot with the idea of dissociation as a defense mechanism and how that relates to Natasha's ability to go undercover (and also control her own emotions so completely). Understand I'm not literally suggesting dissociative identities (because, as you pointed out, that kind of pathology would be pretty extreme for a character who is actually really high functioning), but kind of toeing the line? I don't know, I'm not very articulate about it yet, but it's definitely something I want to explore. Also different manifestations, and recovery, and how Clint and Natasha help each other cope with that ongoing process, especially post-movie.

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

Oh THIS!! YES!!! I agree. And no, not the traditional-classic split personality thing, she'd be insane then. But dissociation is a highly useful mechanism for surviving boredom, or trauma, so yes I can see her toeing the line of that when she needs to "be her role". But, given how highly functional she is, I don't think she was highly dysfunctional, because those things tend to be mutually exclusive.

The age was something that bugged me a lot, and then I decided that "taken at age of six" doesn't make sense to me, but ten or eleven? Works better, I think. Young enough to be changed and trained, but still, with enough of positive stored somewhere to ... save her from complete insanity and personality - fracturing. Because she would never recover if she didn't have something to go back to. It just doesn't work in reality.

[enigma731.livejournal.com]

So, momentarily revisiting the subject of head canons/being new to the fandom...I sort of feel like I need to bounce ideas off of someone regarding my own head canon to make sure that they make sense/aren't borrowing from things I shouldn't be borrowing from, since I have absolutely no idea at this point where most of the ideas I see over and over again in fic originated. What's the best way to do that? I feel kind of presumptuous for asking, but since you all have been so awesomely welcoming... :)

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

I think it's okay to do it here, also, if you want, you can always PM me, or,. like Shen suggested, when you read a fic, you can comment, ask questions; most of the authors are willing to discuss things :)

[shenshen77.livejournal.com]

Totally agree with Anuna, do it here, pm her, me or comment on the works of authors you like, they will surely be happy to discuss things with you :)

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

Which makes me ask... you mentioned you like hurt/comfort; what else do you like in fic? What do you like to read? We can start the discussion there :D

[odakota-rose.livejournal.com]

OHHH. This is perfect. I'm thinking I'll be coming back to this post a lot in the future. Not sure where to start, but for one thing, there's the trust and empathy.
There's a powerful undercurrent of trust running between them, that they know each other. In some ways it almost makes me want to say they're two sides of a coin or some other similar metaphor, because it reads as a very symbiotic relationship.

I suspect that in those early days when Nat first came to SHIELD, Clint might've been the only one who didn't look at her like she was a slow burning fuse that was going to go off at any minute. And maybe at first she had no idea what to do with that, because she couldn't quite figure out what it was he was seeing in her that made him give her a chance (maybe she even spent a while trying to critique herself to determine what tell she was projecting that made him instinctively know she wasn't the threat some agents were still viewing her as). And yes, she could've double crossed them but she didn't, which was puzzling because how the heck could he know that when she wasn't even entirely sure why she didn't want to?
^ There's something nagging at me about this that I can't quite put my finger on at the moment.

Also! Love love LOVE the Gawain comparison. I'm not super familiar with mythology at all, but that just rings perfectly true for Clint. I love this deference, or respect or whatever you want to call it. There's something very civilized/elegant/gentlemanly about it, which at the core, Clint totally is. Not so much in the sense of table manners and courtly bowing and all that, but simple chivalry and courtesy and respect.

I totally see Clint as dealing with PTSD after Loki, and over an extended period of time. As I understand it, triggers can be many and varied and can resurface even decades later, that is to say- I don't see it so much going away. More like something he fights his way through and comes to a place where he can move forward again, but there's still going to be variations on good days and bad days.

Therapy would be important, both in working through his past and dealing with the aftereffects of Loki, though I'm not sure I can see him being willing to go along with it at first in either scenario. He doesn't necessarily strike me as the type to willingly talk about his own demons, so I imagine it takes some time to realize that yes, he needs it and it's beneficial. It would be super interesting to find out how he goes about that process..

[anuna-81.livejournal.com]

Eeeeeeeep thank you! I had a kick out of writing this post. I'm so glad you find it interesting!

You know, in that short, exclusive together on screen time they had in the film (after he wakes up), you can just see things. Closeness, trust, familiarity. They don't need long explanations, you see that they get each other. And empathy and trust, they're fascinating and amazing in two people like them.

It's similar how I see early-days of Nat in SHIELD. She's confused, and trying to sort out herself and what she wants and what her life is supposed to be like. And there's this guy and he looks so certain - that she will make it, that she's worthy, that she's good. She didn't get the same memo, though, so it's interesting, how they work it out, but they do. His stability is good for her, it helps.

Have I showed Red Thread series (http://head-on-home.livejournal.com/tag/series%3A%20the%20red%20thread) to you yet? It's something I'm co writing with a friend, and we're poking at early Clint/Nat and development of trust. You might enjoy; also there's quite a lot of mythology in it. I would really love to hear what you think of it. Just scroll down for the first fic in the series, or check out the latest chapter, it has links to everything that's been written in the 'verse :D Oh and mind the warnings.

Yes, PTSD. *nods* It leaves scars, but therapy helps to carry them. That's how I see it as well, and it's not like Clint doesn't have a fine collection already. He will struggle through, but it will take time - there's a fic about it that I want to write, but can't find enough brain to pull it off. Yet.

Yes, Clint and Sir Gawain - best parallel I could find in mythology (my knowledge is also limited, but I find this comparison works well).