12 April 2013 @ 06:35 pm
ATTF: Money, belongings and other related things  
Hello dear bar! Today's theme is something I actually often wonder about. If you take a look at the post title - money (and other things) - it might not seem very interesting. I think it is, and lately I find myself thinking about it often, so here we go. What are your thoughts and headcanons about our favorite couple and money, earning, finances, owning things. Do you think they're poor, rich, well off, "in the middle" ...? How do you see their growing up, beginning of their "careers" and their work for SHIELD, when it comes to finances?

I don't have a complete and solid headcanon about this, but the more I think, the more it's shaping out. Both have grown up poor (but I can imagine Natasha's real family doing okay, before whatever accident that befell them had happened). Neither had much in their younger days, and I think both have learned to be careful with their possessions, because whatever they owned, it had to be hard earned. I imagine Red Room liked having control over everything, including the number shoes their girls owned (it's practical and it's also psychological pressure, clearly sending the message of "you're owned/you do not exist"); and on the Clint's side of things, most foster families probably weren't too generous, and I imagine him growing up wearing second hand clothes and shoes until he ran away. Living in circus was, I suppose, just as difficult, only in a different way, and I can see Clint slowly finding his feet after joining military. As a SHIELD agent he has regular income, but we'll come back to that later.

Back to Nat, I suppose defecting was a hard thing to do; not only because it takes courage, but because it takes resources to run away and successfully hide from an organization that's as dangerous, ruthless and controlling as RR is. I imagine she gathered things she'd need over a longer period of time, until she was read to go - but even after running away from them, I think she had hard time. Natasha's "job" requires resources - having a successful cover means many things you have to pay for, then plane tickets or other ways of escaping, they all cost money. There's a WIP story that i'm working on currently and financial trouble is one of the things I see as Natasha's reason to join SHIELD. Working for SHIELD, which I imagine isn't an illegal dark organization like RR is (at least in my headcanon) means... regular income, an apartment, health insurance, belongings like normal clothes, TV, DVDs, a car; lots of things most people consider mundane and everyday but for both Clint and Nat they have a different value because it took long time and hard struggle to get there and have that.

What are your thoughts? As I said, this is something I'm still figuring out, and it's not mentioned in fic very often I think - so, what does the bar say and think?

Have fun and remember if you're posting or linking to things (or writing them), apply the proper warnings if necessary. Play nicely, and most importantly, have fun!
 
 
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[identity profile] enigma731.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 05:59 pm (UTC)
(Eek, I'm one of the first commenters? This is scary. :p )

This is something I've actually been thinking about a lot lately while trying to put together a first version of my own headcanon for fic purposes. In my headcanon, I think that after leaving RR and prior to coming to work for SHIELD, Natasha stole things (including money) to get by. I also think she took semi-random mercenary type jobs for money -- hence the reference to not caring who she used her skills for -- because at that point in her life, she was more focused on survival than anything else. Now I think she has a relatively comfortable income with SHIELD, but that she still doesn't have a whole lot of possessions. I think she probably has a bit of a taste for certain luxury items, though, just because she can now.

I agree that Clint grew up without much, and had to kind of make do a lot. I don't think he has a lot of possessions now either, but that's because he kind of avoids getting attached to things since in his experience, a lot of the good things in his life get ruined.
[identity profile] anuna-81.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 06:17 pm (UTC)
*excited nodding* WOMAN DO YOU LIVE IN MY HEAD!

I couldn't possibly put everything I've been thinking about into that post - but yes, Nat was stealing and focusing on survival until she built herself a name and then just went to the highest bidder, so to speak. At some point she hit the "moral crisis" - I always imagine she was aware and wanted to "wipe her ledger" even before she joined SHIELD, and that's the reason why Clint made a different call. (You're reading Chaste, so you know where this is coming from - it's kind of scary when I think that story is actually my headcanon/origin story and EEEEP do not want to much it up). uh anyway!

YES to Nat and luxury, things like shoes or pretty clothes which *she* likes and wears for herself. I think she has a huge thing with "this is something *I* like/earned/bought/picked for myself". CHOICES, which are now hers, extend to things she owns and that's related to identity and yeah. I think Clint could have similar feelings, re - finally owning a place of his own. But yes, lots of good things got ruined, so he's spartan-ish? His place is nice and neat and kind of modest. He does have an awesome guitar. I see Nat's place more like ... comfy couch, soft and pretty things, a big painting on the wall, lots of light, things she didn't have when she was younger.
[identity profile] hufflepuffsneak.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 06:34 pm (UTC)
ashen_key and I had a convo about this, actually. I ended up deciding that they both grew up with limited means, but Natasha's reaction to being well-off was to go for luxury and whimsy, while Clint's was to be cautious (you spent HOW MUCH on that pair of shoes?!). This is a possible source of tension if/ when they move in together.

Natasha + clothes is so much fun to write, it almost makes me wish I knew things about clothes.
[identity profile] anuna-81.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 06:36 pm (UTC)
YEEEEEESSSSS *excited nodding* I come from this school of thought as well. (Also men really don't understand shoes. Also, when Clint needs a really good suit, Nat is picking. He grumbles about the price, but does't regret later as she always picks the best ;)
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[identity profile] enigma731.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:20 pm (UTC)
WOMAN DO YOU LIVE IN MY HEAD!

It's possible. I am kind of creepy like that. :p

I think my head canon (at least my current one) is a little different in that she hadn't broken away from RR very long before Clint was sent to take her out. In my version she's very young and actually kind of sucks at the specifics of taking care of herself, because she's never actually had to acquire that skill set before. So she's really good at the spy type stuff (alternate identities, weapons, etc.) but the rest she's just kind of barely hanging on. Which, in my headcanon, is what Clint picks up on that leads him to recruit her. And then he ends up kind of implicitly teaching her life skill type things early in their partnership/friendship.

But, I love your version in Chaste. I'm so super excited to see how it's developing. :)

Edited 2013-04-12 08:21 pm (UTC)
[identity profile] anuna-81.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:28 pm (UTC)
Oooooh yep, that's an interesting take. My Nat mostly has those skills, but she lacks other things (you'll see! I has a plan, muahahahha) and Clint helps creating a safe space where she can do things, explore things, choose things. Chaste!Nat is in a tough situation because resources are dwindling, safe houses are discovered and there are people constantly after her.

Now I'm reaaaallyyyyy intrigued to hear what you'll think of the next chapter :D
(no subject) - [identity profile] enigma731.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:35 pm (UTC)
[identity profile] crazy4orcas.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 07:39 pm (UTC)
I agree with the idea they both grew up with limited means. Both were dependent upon others to provide for them, Natasha with the Red Room and Clint with the foster system.

I imagine it took Natasha some time to build up the resources to escape the Red Room. I can see her utilizing the skills they taught her to finance her escape by stealing and maybe taking small side jobs if she could be sure the Red Room wouldn't hear about it. Once she was out on her own and earning her reputation I think she would have concentrated on building her own series of safety nets -- safehouses in various places, weapons caches, money caches, and keeping herself well armed. She'd also need to invest in multiple identities and all the associated paperwork (and wardrobes!). I don't see her giving up any of her stashes or safehouses once she joins SHIELD, I think she'd want to have something to fall back on if she needed it. I think that after she joins SHIELD and feels secure there, she'd start to collect things she likes. I don't think she'd go wild and have a lot of knick knacks, but yeah, some luxury items. I a read a fic once where she had a collection of daggers and I can see her being interested in something like that. I also see her covertly furnishing her safehouses, making them comfortable and not just boltholes.

As for Clint, I think that once he had a steady income, he wouldn't spend a lot of money on himself. But, like Natasha and the daggers, I can see him investing in a few awesome bows. Being in the military and then with SHIELD, I imagine he'd do a lot of moving around and wouldn't want to have lot to pack up -- and the moving around would be something he's used to from the foster system and the circus. So, I just don't see him with a lot of possessions. He'd keep his country music, action movie, and Pixar movie collections digital. I do think he would make anonymous donations to several child oriented charites and maybe fund a preserve for old, retired circus animals.

Once he finds out about Natasha's safehouses, I think he'd set up a few of his own. And once he and Natasha are together, they'd arrange a couple of different contingency plans in case they need to disappear.
[identity profile] shenshen77.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 07:47 pm (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I was just writing my comment and deleted it, because it would have been redundant ;)

I'm a hundred percent with you on Nat. As for Clint, I think he might invest in some nice transportation, to me he is a classic car guy. He would probably get himself one of those. It would satisfy is want for something nice, something that is his alone and also provide a getaway, if he needs it. I would also think that he had set up some boltholes across the globe, even before he met Nat. But unlike hers, his would be more spartan. And I can totally see him making those donations to children's charities or orphanages. And yes, he would certainly try to do something for old circus animals or old circus people.
[identity profile] anuna-81.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:03 pm (UTC)
VINTAGE CAR. I think that's pretty much canon and generally accepted headcanon. Clint strikes me as practical, so everything he owns is utilitarian, or doesn't require too much room.
[identity profile] shenshen77.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:07 pm (UTC)
Yep, it would all fit into his duffle, at least the stuff he really likes.
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[identity profile] crazy4orcas.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:24 pm (UTC)
I knew there was something else I'd wanted to mention -- THE CAR!

I think he'd have one that he's restoring (the whole yummy-grease smudged-Clint ;) ) and maybe one or two that he's already restored. He keeps them close to whatever state-side base he's at the most.

He also makes sure that their safehouses have getaway vehicles. Totally souped-up, bullet-resistant getaway vehicles.
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[identity profile] crazy4orcas.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:37 pm (UTC)
I can see Clint having/not having boltholes going either way. He kinda strikes me as an agent whose whole life is the job, who might not know what else to do with himself outside of SHIELD. He probably even thinks he's going to die on a mission.

I was thinking along the lines that his loyalty was to SHIELD, so he wouldn't need to make plans to leave. But eventually, his loyalty and priorities shift to Natasha, so he takes steps to ensure her/their safety.
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[identity profile] anuna-81.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:01 pm (UTC)
AHDGHGJJGJGFDSHFJHL !!!!1!1 THIS!

I do think he would make anonymous donations to several child oriented charites and maybe fund a preserve for old, retired circus animals.

THIS. THIS THIS THIS. YES. HEADCANON ACCEPTED. *excited nodding* I really don't see Clint as a big spender of money. he has savings, has his car or perhaps a bike, has a guitar and travels light. it fits. he might come to own more (more clothes, books, things like that) once he's settled down with Nat. As for Nat, I think she was spending her money wisely in her "setting up solo career" stage, because all things you mentioned require resources. Everything she has serves a purpose. Once she's with SHIELD she doesn't have to do that any more, she can have little whims.
inkvoices: avengers:assassins back to back[personal profile] inkvoices on April 12th, 2013 08:42 pm (UTC)
I love all of the thinky thoughts that are coming out of this discussion :D I'm mostly nodding along to everything - I don't have any headcanon on this, but everything that everyone is saying fits, and I do tend to think of both of them as not owning much in their past. How that might manifest in their present circumstances though, I have no idea. (Especially if/when they move in with Tony Stark!)

Trying to think of something to different to add, and all I can think is that if I'm saying Clint has the background of destructive family environment > foster home > circus and...because of that I have this idea that he's one for family, or sees value in family, in being with people. And maybe he feels he shouldn't have to need people or that that's a weakness, but anyway. If so, maybe he's the kind of person who puts value in things for sentimental reasons, or for the tradition of them. Like if he had a bow at the circus that was second hand it wouldn't be the best bow in the world, perhaps not even suitable for him, but it would have history. And if he has no family heirlooms as such himself, nothing with family history, maybe he values things for that. For their meaning.

Wereas Natasha, assuming she was taken from her family young and grew up in a Red Room type environment, might see objects more as valuable for their power, such as that money means freedom, expensive clothes allow you to influence people, egyptian cotton sheets mean comfort.
[identity profile] anuna-81.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 08:56 pm (UTC)
Yeeeeeeep. *nods* Poor them neither actually has family heirlooms and those sentimental roots.

Oooh interesting question. I always imagine Tony sets up their apartments with everything and even tries personalizing them - which he succeeds at, for the most part (I think he learned something from those strawberries). Tony too values people, I think, what he really wants to have is a family to belong to and that's why he's tooting the team horn so had all through the movie. He might have had more than Clint in his youth but he was an orphan nevertheless - an orphan with lots of shiny toys. Now he can (finally) share the toys with other people.

Oh the second hand bow! Yes! And he had to adapt to it, because it wasn't perfectly right for him, but it has history and ... Clint doesn't have many things or many people he shares history with.

Yes re- Natasha and powerful belongings. And UGH you've given me thinky thoughts and feeeeeels again!
inkvoices: ideas[personal profile] inkvoices on April 12th, 2013 09:12 pm (UTC)
Most of the 'everyone moves into the Tower/mansion' type fics that I've read have Tony either part personalising the space he sets aside for the others, leaving room for them to add their own touches, or completely personalises them with help from Pepper and/or the others (like asking Clint what Natasha would like and vice versa). But then there was one (maybe two? i forget) fics where people started drifting into the Tower whilst it was still being rebuilt and they helped with the rebuild, which was different. Or they all move into the Stark's New York mansion, which Tony hasn't been into since he was a kid and is full or not-so-good memories for him, so the team ends up personalising it to him as well as them, like they all move in.

Which is to say it's interesting where the fandom hive mind travels :)

Natasha and powerful belongings Aha, yes, that's what I was trying to say: that because of their upbringings Natasha views objects in terms of power relations (use such as comfort being a power) and Clint in terms of sentimentality, the intangibility of objects. Both of them, then, imbibing objects with something that they didn't have when they were growing up.

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[identity profile] hufflepuffsneak.livejournal.com on April 12th, 2013 10:16 pm (UTC)
Though I think at the end of the day Natasha sees her attachment to objects as something to jettison if necessary, whereas the few important people in her life are not in that category.

inkvoices: avengers:natasha romanoff is black widow[personal profile] inkvoices on April 12th, 2013 10:20 pm (UTC)
Heh, funnily enough if you look at the reply I did to [livejournal.com profile] crazy4orcas just a minute ago I took a long rambling time to pretty much say that. You say it more succintly and better :D But yes, I was trying to think through if people being of worth was a struggle for Natasha (dependent on views of her background) if objects would register as things of worth of just part of power relations for her.
inkvoices: avengers:assassins budapest again[personal profile] inkvoices on April 12th, 2013 10:23 pm (UTC)
Here's another line of thought: where do weapons fall into all of this? As in are weapons things to be bought, owned, traded, cherished...? Or provided by employers, generic ones...? Or something to be had like extra limbs, necessities that aren't really considered objects but extensions of self? Or like a twist on that expression about bookworms: I buy weapons first, then food and clothes if I have any money left?
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[identity profile] laughtersmelody.livejournal.com on April 13th, 2013 02:40 am (UTC)
In my mind, I've always imagined that both Clint and Nat have a very practical attitude towards possessions...for them, possessions are simply tools which are necessary for living.

I think that growing up, not only did they not have much, but they probably lost quite a bit, Nat to the Red Room, Clint in the orphanage. I imagine them telling themselves over and over, "I can't get attached to anything, I can't think of it as mine, because I'm just going to lose it anyway." Eventually, that just became normal for them, and it was enforced by their lives as assassins.

I think they were both probably paid very highly when they were freelance - skills like theirs, success rates like theirs, would be hard to come by, and probably, people were willing to pay a very pretty penny for them.

But, I don't imagine either Clint or Nat splurging much, even then. I think they put a lot into numerous savings accounts, fake identities, safe houses, and weapons. But they probably had to be willing to move at a moment's notice, and most likely, there were times when they just had to drop everything they had and go somewhere else.

I picture things changing a little once they were with SHIELD, because they can actually have something that's theirs, but old habits die hard, and I think there would be very few times they'd indulge in luxuries.

More than any other possessions, I think they're both attached to their favorite weapons, because, after all, their weapons are *them* in a sense. Still, I think there is a point where they see weapons in a practical sense too. As they've experienced repeatedly, possessions can be replaced.

Edited 2013-04-13 02:53 am (UTC)
[identity profile] alphaflyer.livejournal.com on April 13th, 2013 03:49 am (UTC)
Fully concur that they must have been paid rather nicely when they were working freelance -- in my head canon, Clint paid for his little (not huge, because he doesn't need the space) apartment with his first paycheque, "topped up by his private stash". But he lives pretty basically (mostly Chinese takeout), using shampoo from the Vietnamese grocery around the corner. (See The Skies Over Manhattan, Ch. 1 (http://archiveofourown.org/works/574373)).

As for Natasha, she too has "private means" and uses them to buy the pricey hair and skin care products, plus exquisite shoes. Occasionally she makes Clint buy nice things to wear (or better yet, buys them for him because he'd be appalled by how much you can spend on Armani...).

And YES on the weapons. Favourite bow for him, and those Glocks for her. Daaaarling!!! ;-)

Edited 2013-04-13 03:50 am (UTC)
[identity profile] laughtersmelody.livejournal.com on April 13th, 2013 04:29 am (UTC)
I could definitely imagine Nat paying for pricey hair and skin care products, not only as a luxury - a very nice luxury, lol :) - but for practical reasons too. She needs to look her best for those missions when she's a lure, and not just there as the muscle.

And ooh, Clint and Armani... *is now happily imagining Clint dressed to the nines*

Edited 2013-04-13 04:30 am (UTC)
ext_36286: movie // avengers // i <3 this bar[identity profile] allisnow.livejournal.com on April 13th, 2013 03:59 am (UTC)
This is pretty much me, along with a lot of what others have said. I think it's interesting and kind of awesome that even though (iirc) this topic hasn't explicitly come up before, a lot of us seem more or less on the same page.

I think Natasha is more comfortable with luxury than Clint is because her job required she be; working for the RR required that she deal with high-value targets and to be comfortable in a variety of situations. After joining SHIELD, I see her as appreciating nice things, but not being terribly comfortable with ostentatious wealth. She's more of a window-shopper than an impulse buyer, and one of the things she likes about SHIELD is that she still gets to play with the pricy stuff... and have THEM pick up the tab.

In my headcanon they both have boltholes. They both had the impermanence of security impressed on them as children to the point that they are prepared to take care of themselves if the worst happens. It wouldn't occur to them to be completely dependent on anybody (except now maybe each other *tear*). They're both good at saving and even investing, but a lot of resources have gone into making sure that they have fake papers and safe places to retreat to. (In an AU where Loki won/the Earth is a post-apocalyptic wasteland under Chitauri rule, they'd be the best off of all the Avengers.)

For people like them, weapons would be emblematic of security and self-sufficiency, so they definitely have their own stash.
[identity profile] laughtersmelody.livejournal.com on April 13th, 2013 04:41 am (UTC)
I think Natasha is more comfortable with luxury than Clint is because her job required she be; working for the RR required that she deal with high-value targets and to be comfortable in a variety of situations.

I completely agree. For Clint, I think that kind of wealth would be more foreign, though as you said so well, Natasha wouldn't really be comfortable with ostentatious wealth of her own.

In an AU where Loki won/the Earth is a post-apocalyptic wasteland under Chitauri rule, they'd be the best off of all the Avengers.

I love that idea. That would be such an awesome AU!

Tony really might not know what to do with himself if he lost all his wealth....he's not totally dependant on it by any means, but he's so used to it. What a twist it would be for him to have to depend on Clint and Nat for help. And Clint and Nat's skills work the best for hunting too, so, they'd have an easier time than anyone else supporting themselves that way as well. They're survivors in the most basic sense.
(no subject) - [identity profile] allisnow.livejournal.com on April 13th, 2013 04:52 am (UTC)
endeni: Cap Shield[personal profile] endeni on April 15th, 2013 09:23 am (UTC)
(money related) fic rec, yay!
Untitled ficlet by recessional - As Nat sort of jerks the poor car into park out of sheer frustration, Clint looks at her and says, "For the record, you have issues." (gen)
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