You just sparked a thought on Natasha for me there - I don't see here as having a particular nationality or culture, but rather, or more importantly, having her own...code. Below I was saying how arguably Natasha had 'Russian' imposed on her by the Red Room, and that I can play on that, I can read Russian history and books like Deathless and say that was the type of Russian ascribed to Natasha, rather than wondering how, say, a typical person growing up in Russia at that time might be, or consider themselves, Russian. But then I uproot her. Because she stepped away from that. On top of being this spy capable of being anyone to anyone. So that in writing Natasha whilst I have a hum of a particular type of Russian identity playing somewhere in the background, it's the sense of searching for idividual identity, the challenge of reinventing herself, of whatever it is that she does to find a place to plant her feet and stand...and that place is 'here be Natasha', not a particular national identity. That if she even does have a sense of shared national identity or culture of any kind left it's much less important that that island of self.

I think.

(Huh, I'm wordy tonight *grins*)

"This is me" or "here be Natasha" is something I find monumentally important for her. i eman, it's a large thing in my Natasha headcanon - she was made, like yous aid below, other people decided what she was supposed to be like, she had to go everywhere, fir everywhere, pretend she liked this or that and then she has the chance to decide "but this is me. this is what I like. this is the place I call home" - code, country, nationality (I don't see her having a nationality - i used my experience mostly to paint a parallel) - important thing is, it was her choice. And incredibly hard work, it had to be. So, like you're saying below, she is flexible and writing her as American or Russian or whatever isn't really a barrier. What matters is that she ends up as a person of her own making and I love that about her. That idea really influences how I write her in any story or any 'verse. :)

Similiar thought process: check ;D Do you think Natasha would have had a national identity or culture prior to...claiming independence, as it were? Or just a nationality as imposed by the Red Room? Hmm, and how does this effect an AU Natasha? Because I've just been saying that I see Natasha's nationality pre-independence as imposed, a creation of nationality rather than true or at least typical nationality, so then what am I saying about Natasha when she's in an AU...more or less Russian? Does it fall back on her being a spy? (Although I still see her fight for self being the big factor, the most important, what's the background, y'know?)

Heeeee, okay. I think she had a sense of "I was born in Russia" (was she? was she born someplace else? my headcanon has her born in Russia)- and I think red Room took that and imposed what being a true Russian means on her, and also forced her into loyalty and on the other side of that was fear for her life, because I see them as "you either listen and obey or you die" type of organization. I thinks he gets rid of all of that, all those bad things when she chooses "this is who I am", and keeps "I used to be a Russian" like... faded childhood memories before everything went wrong.

Hmmmm, what kind of AU? I have AUs where she was born in US but her parents were from Russia. So there's a connection to Russia.

As for being a spy... I think she has to be able to pretend she is from all kinds of places. So while being forced-loyal to RR, she couldn't hold her Russian or any other identity too close to her heart, because she had to pretend really really well that she belonged someplace else.

Fight for herself in one form or another is my most important thing about Natasha. if we're talking about AU it doesn't have to be related to nationality - Natasha fights for herself, for some aspect of herself.

If we go off comics she was born in Russia *grins*.

I have AUs where she was born in US but her parents were from Russia. So there's a connection to Russia. Yeah, but if the Red Room imposed being 'true Russian' on her, so not actual Russian, not what a typical person growing up in that country at that time would be but rather a specific type of Russian, does that effect/how does that effect her when she's in an AU? Because then even if we place her in Russia she will have grown up Russian. Not made-up-this-IS-Russia.

Ooo, interesting. So even when the Red Room want her loyalty - and that would be to them, to their ideal of Russia and not the actual country - then they wouldn't be able to make that, what, fundamental? if it would inhabit her ability to become someone else as part of being the perfect spy...

Am I hitting the language barrier here or what? :D

Okay, i think RR uses some kind of "ideal Russian" or "model Russian" identity they impose onto their girls not because they believe in ideal Russia but because it's a tool that gets the job done. National identity is a strong thing, you identify with a group, "they're my brothers" sort of thing, you're ready to die for them and your country. It's what helps convince soldiers to go into war. I've sadly seen how it affects people, and how it makes people hate everyone who belongs to some other group. Us against them kind of mentality, and it's very toxic, where someone convinces you that you're X and that you should have everyone who is Y because Y is wrong, evil, they're an enemy. So I think RR would use that as a tool to ensure those girls are loyal to them and do their work for mother Russia. Their ideal Russia is, I think, what nationality ideals are to any tyrant who wants innocent young people to go and fight a war in their place. To anyone who wants to convince large number of people that they should hate someone and go and kill them. While the idea of Russia would be something central to the girls, I think it doesn't matter all too much to those who run RR. They just want their pawns faithful, manageable and willing to die if they have to. (Up close experience with war is probably something that also affects me as a writer).

Nope, I don't think so? :) Just the way you phrased being born in Russia as 'having a connection to Russia' and some other things I could tell you might be thinking similiar things to me but still something different to me and I want to know what, because fascinating, so I rephrase and repeat to dig *grins*.

Because I got this: that we meant the same thing be a sense of 'ideal' of Russia being imposed, and as part of an 'us against them' mentality, but whilst your brain was analysing what that means for Red Room mine had gone off on what that meant for AU Natasha, who wouldn't have that Red Room sense of being Russian, so what type of Russian would she be? I guess whatever a typical Russian girl growing up at that time would be. (Unless she was part of a maffia or other background with some imposition within that AU, which I know I tend to do, to have some mirror to the hardships she had in her (comics) youth.)

And on the back of what you said there, you've just made me think about the fact that that was imposed on more than one person, on a group, so that Natasha would have a sense of loyalty to the imposed Russian ideal, to Red Room, and perhaps also to the others she was with maybe?

I don't think of RR as being a Russian-based organization in anything other than the geographic sense. Ideologically they seem more Soviet (in the sense of "the collective before the individual", not necessarily attached to a Government) but their sense of identity seems more global, as in transnational organized crime or other assorted interests. I may be off the mark here, since I haven't read the comics, but that's the head canon I tend to go with.

I took the line literally...when she said she used to be Russian, I thought she was born in Russia, but now is an American citizen. SHIELD is an American organization, right? I'm so out of the loop when it comes to canon here!