The people on FFn have been lovely, yes - but the site is just getting more and more messed up. There were the fics being deleted, and now constant bad formatting and site-designs issues and *clings to AO3*

I tend to see Natasha as being raised with as normal emotions as possible (just because things are easier to fake if there is truth behind them, as far as my take on the Red Room is concerned - she's a spy first), but she's weaponized them, is after control - her emotions are tools. ANYWAY, yes, exactly - Natasha, always I think, feels things deeply, but now it just all boils over and she can't escape, can't control it. Plus the sensory overload and hallucinations, and I find it all way, way to interesting to poke at.

You see through my cunning plan! <.< But, yes, precisely - I figure we could both have posts like this, or posts sharing our WiPs, or just questions and general help and brainstorming. It's the kind of community where it seems to be a community, rather than just 'place where people post fic'.

Okay, ouch, I can imagine the mess *cringes*.

Now that's interesting. Do you mean the Red Room in this scenario raised Natasha with emotions so that she could weaponise them or that Natasha chose to weaponise them herself? Natasha as using everything that she has as a tool, yes, definitely. I don't know...I guess I was thinking that it would be easier for the Red Room to control her if she was emotionless, but I guess really the key is if they can control her emotions...which may be why (or one reason) why Natasha keeps such a close guard ont them? Thinky thoughts time *grins*.

See something interesting, poke it with a stick *nods*.

It's the kind of community where it seems to be a community, rather than just 'place where people post fic'. And I love that so damn much! :D

Ahaha, a chance to babble about my Red Room? *____*

My Red Room absolutely raised Natasha with emotions, for a number of reasons:

- It'd be easier for the girls to blend in when on assignment (because they are spies as well as assassins) if they are well socialized and know how to interact with people, and it'd be far easier for them to draw on a combination of training and their own emotional experience to create believable interactions and personae. Otherwise, the Red Room would have to...break them and then fix them again, and then train, train, train when they have so much other things to teach them - easiest just to manipulate what they have.

- related to the above: this'd make the girls more stable, always a plus for spies and assassins. But this is a stable which has responses to the Red Room as inbuilt controls. It's not perfect, but the benefits tend to outweigh the risks. And there is always a risk with spies, anyway.

- Emotionless people would lack the desired combination of loyalty and fear to be obedient (not that you need fear to be obedient and loyal, but this is the KGB we are talking about). This? Is not good when you are talking about a collection of girls and young women who are highly trained and highly dangerous. Particularly not when they are being trained as spies, which would mean months out in the world being other people - the Red Room would want them to come home again, not just vanish. Also, it's slightly hard to punish people who have no emotions like fear - they won't learn to come to heel, so to speak. The Red Room also doesn't want the girls to be sociopaths, because again, then they wouldn't be as obedient, and they wouldn't have an off-switch or much of a 'this is a stupid idea' filter, and have a much higher potential to go rogue or mess up missions just because it's fun and they are bored, depending on how their personalities fall out.

- related to the above: carrot and stick. The Red Room girls form attachments to the other girls and their teachers, then a) they will be less inclined to vanish and leave their sisters and friends behind, b) the other girls being made examples of hits much harder, and c) depending on the handler, the girls will have emotional bonds and want to please.

The Red Room's control over the girls is a mixture of emotional and psychological abuse (rewards and punishment, kindness and cruelty, love and terror - my Natasha spent most of her childhood and all of her adolescence terrified of doing the wrong thing, of her sisters being killed for failure, but it was an insidious terror that she just accepted as normal and didn't acknowledge much) and good old fashioned psychological brainwashing. My Red Room functions a lot like a cult, and cults are very good at getting obedience and belief from their members. (And my Red Room does have an ideology behind it, albeit one that post-USSR is increasingly fringe and out of touch.)

(Of course, the insidious, cult-esque/dictator-state style of brainwashing isn't the only kind that the Red Room practices, but the sledgehammer tactic of locking the girls up alone in a dark room for weeks to de-construct their mind* and rebuild it again is a sledgehammer to the girls' exquisitely trained minds, and they prefer not to do that. In my 'verse, Natasha had this done to her when she was seventeen, after her adolescent rebellion and loss of 'faith' (as it were) grew too noticeable. (And the Red Room leadership was still in a tailspin over the loss of the USSR two/three years previously, so they were more vicious than they might otherwise have been). Hence her reply to Clint's question - she has had someone play around with her brain, but it wasn't as sudden as his, and it was different, so he didn't immediately grasp the similarities.)

*combination of sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, drugs and being woken up randomly so they'd lose track of time, and it doesn't take that long for the human mind to start to unravel under that kind of stress. I'm still working on the details, but my book on brainwashing keeps on talking about things I'm not interested in, so I keep getting distracted.

Wow, okay, you've thought about this a lot :D

Otherwise, the Red Room would have to...break them and then fix them again See, my understandings of the comics is that that's what they did, kind of comics!science!brainwashing. But. I like that in the films it's not said that Natasha is 'agumented' in any way, so that her and Clint are the two 'humans' on the team. I did some meta a bit ago on why I like to think that Natasha of the films hasn't been brainwashed, short answer being that catch a child young and you wouldn't need to.

Linking into what else you said, but particularly about controlling their assets and fear: I think it's a liklihood that they would be confused or manipulated into what to fear, into who were really the 'bad guys', that their world view would have been created by the Red Room. To make them believe that the punishments you refer to are what they deserve, for instance.

I've read fics where the girls of the Red Room range from friends to vicious competitors, but a scene that sticks out for me is where, and I can't remember the fic (fail), a new girl won't stop crying and Natasha kills her, not out of hatred, but because she won't survive what's in store for her if she's crying now and because her crying is disturbing, kind of putting her out of her misery alongside self-interest, but they way the author wrote that stuck with me. Natasha's head space as created by the Red Room. And, like you say, just accepted as normal.

I hadn't thought of it in comparison to a cult before, but very apt!

Mostly a whole lot of 'yes' for everything you said :D I've tended to have the Red Room as a shadowy, implied menace in my musings so far, because I love all the interpretations and thoughts people are coming up with, some contradictory, and there's no one Red Room for me yet.

Ahah, yep, I have!

Yeah, comics. I'm...ignoring comics, in a lot of respects, for various reasons. I'll take the Red Room's existence and some bits of Natasha's backstory, and then run away with them and do my own thing. Also, I tend to like Natasha being "normal", too (or - mostly normal. I can believe that the Red Room did things to her endurance levels, but she's still baseline-human normal).

But I would disagree with you on your definition of brainwashing - to me, how Natasha was raised? That's absolutely brainwashing. It was a more distilled, potent version of the kind that the propaganda tried to spin over the entire Soviet bloc - and because the Red Room could control the girls' environment and experiences, it was very effective. But to me, that utter search for control over the girls' beliefs and thoughts? And making them believe exactly what the Powers That Be wanted them to? And absolutely never allowed to question? Brainwashing.

(Natasha probably had a lot of double-think going on, too, with things she couldn't square up with her beliefs while she still had them.)

But I do agree with you on that her worldview was shaped by the Red Room, obviously. Which is also (partly) why I have her mid-thirties in Avengers - this makes her old enough for the fall of the USSR to have a shattering impact on her (also, it's old enough for her to a) get out, b) get a reputation as a mercenary assassin/thief/spay, c) be in SHIELD long enough to be trusted as she is. But that's another topic). The Red Room is KGB (or, now formerly KGB), which to me links them firmly with the actual ideals of the Soviet Union (and, you know, it gives them a purpose apart from Be Evil. I'm a big fan of evil organizations actually having a purpose rather than Be Evil *g*). Hence to me her comment of "Regimes fall every day, I try not to weep over that. I'm Russian, or I was." I think the fall of the USSR really, really shook the Red Room, and really shook her, because Communism lost. But before that (and after that, if they can spin it right, depending on how rogue the Red Room has gone - but still, I think control has been slipping from the Red Room's fingers since '91), really, to control the girls, belief is one of the most powerful weapons in an organization like that's arsenal. And the loss of the central cause...I like to play with that. Or think about playing with it - my Red Room creeps me out, so beyond Congratulations on Your Birthday, I haven't really poked in-depth at Natasha's Red Room life. That depressed me enough that I went and made an AU where she never went and became an awesome philologist instead (and still ended up meeting Clint, because I am a shamless shipper) just to feel better (not that I really have...words in that AU, it's mostly just a fun mental-playground).

I've actually read a lot of that kind of Natasha! Sadly, I haven't read many (actually, I can't think of any off the top of my head) where the girls in the Red Room are friends at all. Which makes me sad, because there is a lot that can be done with the kind of relationships formed in that kind of environment.

And that makes a lot of sense! I am just one of those people who can't really write until I have various things nailed down, and the Red Room is a biiiig one. And I agree, the various different takes on it are so very, very interesting.

Oops, don't think I phrased myself very well - I call the comics!voodoo, as in science wiping Natasha's brain, chemically remaking her, 'brainwashing' and what we're talking about as 'remaking' to distinguish the two sometimes. Think I got stuck on doing that.

Yes, yes, yes, more yes... I am open to lots of interpretations of Natasha's age (and the ages for the rest of the characters for that matter) as long as there are reasons. Personally, I like to play with Natasha being younger, figuring that she's more likely to be able to change, to remake herself, to more flexible in herself to do that, and being young being more resilient. Other than that, I tend to see an age gap between her and Clint, but their actual ages up for debate.

I definitely like my bad guys having reasons too :D I think it's actually much scarier having the opposition be someone with a well-thought out and logical argument, something that were you different, would be something you could believe yourself. That possibility for doubt.

Hmm, it wasn't the fall of Communism though, was it? It was the fall of the USSR. We still have communist countries (The People's Republic of China would be the obvious example) but it was the collapse of a network of Communist countries, the communist block, and would certainly have huge impacts. Plenty of room for playing though, from the Red Room going underground, preserving communist ideals, to a power vacuum left by the collapse of the USSR, filled by the mafia or whoever...

Awww. I tend to have the Red Room be shadowy, an implied horrible, and then get on with the making better ;)

Nope, not many where the Red Room girls are friends...fic time? *grins*

I don't know...I think I have to have what I want to say pinned down. What my point is. Even if it's a little thing like, oh, I don't know, someone likes cake. But it could be the Red Room. Just something to hinge everything on. Then I go out and play.

Ohhhhhhhhhh, gotcha. I just tend to go with actual!brainwashing and comics!brainwashing - so, to clarify, I don't think Natasha has ever been comic!brainwashed, but she's absolutely been actual!brainwashed, in a number of ways.

Yeah, I tend to have Clint at eight years older than her, and my Natasha got out of the Red Room when she was twenty-one. She didn't join SHIELD until she was twenty-nine - IMO, that gives her enough time to stick herself somewhat back together again and to develop a reputation as an assassin who didn't care who she worked for (that phrasing made me think she got her reputation while freelancing, because if she was still Red Room, she'd have the Red Room holding her leash).

And, yes, I didn't explain myself very well (note to self: stop posting after midnight, you make no sense). Of course Communism itself is still around, but the USSR collapsing...it was the Soviet block that Natasha was raised to defend, in my take on her and the Red Room, and now it's disintegrated, and being taken over by the worst form of capitalist excess and essentially controlled by the maffiya. The Red Room can play with that as they go a bit rogue, and I absolutely seeing them as essentially going rogue. And I don't think Natasha ever quite recovers from the idealistic shock of her purpose just....collapsing on her.

:P I have...several fics planned on where the girls are friends! (admittedly, one of them is "Natasha and another one of the girls go on a revenge kick to avenge one of the other girls whom they broke out with", which is the hunt for Natasha, so it's all Clint's POV, but oops) I just make puppy-eyes at the rest of fandom.

*nodnods* that makes sense! I'm just a...I like knowing the world, somewhat, before I go out and play. Different styles for different authors, and all of that :)

Oh yes, she's definitely had her brain played with.

I like your ages explaination :) Although since we don't actually know I've had fun reading all the different fics putting her at different ages. I seem to be able to hold two Natashas in my head at the moment - one who left the Red Room and joined SHIELD straight after somewhere between 15-18, not a kid because of what they've done to her but still a kid in so many ways, and another, more self-assured Natasha who left the Red Room and went her own way before being recruited by SHIELD.

I suspose it depends on the 'purpose' the Red Room has given her. If it's to follow the Red Room, then the fact that the objectives of the Red Room and the state of it change in the face of the collapse of the USSR would be a big deal, but not as much as if the 'purpose' she's been given is the communist ideals/objective of the Red Room. If that makes sense? It's the fact that she says she tends not to weep over regime changes. Also, if a self-assured Natasha didn't care who she worked for after she left the Red Room...I don't know, maybe the Red Room cracking after the collapse of the USSR would mean she'd have no one to follow and therefore wouldn't care, if her purpose was to follow the Room and not the objectives of the Room... *is thinky and possible incoherent*

I will look forward to reading those :D

That's what makes it fun :)