Okay, these are really interesting questions, but all I'm thinking of at the moment is Natasha in a suit, pretending to be a criminal psychologist while gathering information for S.H.I.E.L.D. I imagine some part of her job, at least early on, is infiltrating existing organizations to see if S.H.I.E.L.D. does need to be involved with their cases. Most of the time it would be nothing, but there was that one time with the F.B.I. and the flesh-eating zombies...

As for whether they need to worry about the other organizations. I think that as the Black Widow, she probably was on Interpol's radar for a bit. They might even have a photo of her. Clint, on the other hand, might have a harder time dealing with American law enforcement if he was a bank robber for a while.

*grins* Infiltrating other law enforcement agencies works too, lol. :) (I'm now totally picturing the same thing for Nat...)

And very true about Clint. You know, if someone in SHEILD or on the Council decided that Clint was too dangerous after that incident with Loki, going after his criminal record might a good "above board" way to try to take him out of the picture.

You know, if someone in SHEILD or on the Council decided that Clint was too dangerous after that incident with Loki, going after his criminal record might a good "above board" way to try to take him out of the picture.

Oh, I like that.

And now I'm picturing a whole series of alliterative titles for Natasha's missions, you know the ones with a bad mystery vibe? The F.B.I. and the Flesh-eating Zombies. The NYPD and the Nightwalkers. The C.I.A. and the Cobra Conspiracy.

Oh, I like that.

I do too. *tries to shoo off plot bunny*

The F.B.I. and the Flesh-eating Zombies. The NYPD and the Nightwalkers. The C.I.A. and the Cobra Conspiracy.

Lol! I could definitely see that.

Nothing can save you from the plot bunny! Except, perhaps, the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

Lol, I'm not sure if even that would work... *plot bunny growls, and shows off fangs*

I am a bit confused on Clint's past...I'm assuming he was a criminal or worse based on what Loki said at one point of his life. But still. Fuzzy.

Natasha on the other hand...def. on some peoples radar. I mean, if SHIELD was trying to take her out, probably so was everyone else. I wonder if once she joined SHIELD, they sent out a memo "she's cool folks, just forget she screwed you over/killed your brother, etc". Then again, SHIELD has many enemies itself (as Clint stated), so they are probably on many hitlists for that itself.

I've never read the comics myself, so most of what I know about Clint's past comes from fics and fandom discussions. :) From what I've gathered, Clint was a criminal for a while, and a thief, as well as being an assassin for hire. So, he spent quite a bit of time on the other side of the law.

I wonder if once she joined SHIELD, they sent out a memo "she's cool folks, just forget she screwed you over/killed your brother, etc".

LOL.

It does make you wonder how many people are out there who have grudges against Clint and Nat from their time with SHIELD and before...

Oh wow, I didn't know he was all of that...very interesting! I suspected something, but at the same time, a part of me wondered if Loki was just referring to the fact that he is a sniper. Even Nat is "good" now, but its all relative...they are still murdering folks for a living.

And a bit OT...Is she really killing people when she takes them down in the movies? Like her thigh thingie (which actually looks more like she's wrapping her knees rather than thighs around people's necks), and other 'tricks' seems to be more like she is just knocking them out, not actually killing them. Clint, on the other hand, is obviously really killing people.

I always thought she was using her thighs to snap their necks....

And yeah, the name Black Widow applies a certain ... finality to her actions. ;-)

Good point about the thighs!! She is using the muscles instead of literally putting her thighs around them. Never thought of that, haha

Medically-speaking too, the neck is a very sensitive area. Besides actually breaking her opponent's necks, she could cut off blood flow to the brain, crush wind pipes...all of which could also be deadly.

And if memory serves, leg muscles are some of the strongest in the body, so it makes sense that she uses her thighs. Since she jumps up to wrap her legs around her enemy's necks, she can use her weight and momentum to strengthen the blow even further. For that reason, her thighs are probably more effective than her arms would be (though she's undoubtedly deadly that way as well).

...and I sound like I've spent way to much time thinking about these sorts of things, lol. *blushes*

Haha I love it!! I spend time thinking about stuff like that too. Makes sense since she is relatively small and light (compared to bulky dudes), but quick and agile...totally makes sense that she can drop them with her weight against their necks.

Being confused/fuzzy on Clint's past is just fine; that's what the wonderful world of fanfiction is for! Ha! :) And I ADORE the idea of a little "she's cool bro" memo about Natasha that was probably sent around. Though any agency might acknowledge this on a public level, there are bound to be some disgruntled employees who would want to take things into their own hands.

...there are bound to be some disgruntled employees who would want to take things into their own hands.

That would make such a fun fic.

Well, I think that any record that might have put Natasha Romanoff on Interpol's Red Notice system or into the FBI's or any state police force's "wanted" list would have been erased once they joined SHIELD. So -- instant clean slate. That's how SHIELD works, and the agencies in question wouldn't necessarily get a say in the matter ...

I alluded in an otherwise facetious minific to possible fallout from Clint using his arrows in Germany. The Bundeskriminalamt can be like a dog with a bone, and once an investigation has started, erasing files will be more difficult and someone might ask questions about the use of arrows as a weapon in the New York context. Best chance there is to get the investigation abandoned since "those arrows can't possibly have been fired by the same guy -- he was on OUR side!"

In general, there'd be a certain professional respect within their respective lanes (like Steve displayed on Park Avenue in the movie), but also the usual collegial contempt) between agencies (like the cops initially displayed on Park Avenue). The FBI and NYPD would happily cede jurisdiction when there's aliens and rampaging doombots involved ("You wanna arrest that, Karl? Me neither. Okay, let's call those so-called specialists.") And then when the job is done, over a beer they'd describe what they saw as "those stuck-up, over-resourced spooks who think their badge gives them a free ride and a get-out-jail-free-card for the collateral damage". SHIELD agents, on the other hand, would look at the "locals" with a bit of an attitude people have towards support staff, the guys who do the day-to-day, ho-hum parts of the job ("Mugger? Not my line of work. Now if he had purple feathers ... Call garbage disposal!") and would raise a mildly contemptuous eyebrow when some NYPD guy asked questions about just where that nerve agent came from. ("What did you say your clearance level was? Oh, they don't have those in city police? I forgot ... Sorry, Sergeant, no can-do ...)

Yeah. Work with, and mock. The usual, when it comes to agencies with similar but divergent mandates. Oh and information sharing? HA. Dream on.

ET dispose of typos and add something...

Edited 2013-05-11 12:32 am (UTC)

I thought about the "instant clean slate" too. But, while they can clear all the official records and so forth, they can't get rid of all the people who might remember Clint and Nat. I just can't help wondering what would happen if someone who remembered them met them as SHIELD agents. "Hey, you were on the 'Most Wanted' list a few years ago..." wouldn't be the basis for trust, lol. :)

Very true about FBI and NYPD probably having to cede jurisdiction, though, potentially, as you said, the mess in New York might have been large enough the SHIELD couldn't deal with all the fallout alone. Some cooperation might be necessary. (Of course, I'm now imagining a group of CSI techs trying to put crime scene tape around one of those whale-like creatures...)

But, mocking, yes, there would definitely mocking, mixed with, occasionally, grudging respect.

Agree on all points! It's the active investigations (involving people) that you have to worry about. But there would probably be little by way of photographic evidence of either of them around, so it's just a question of clearing anything from the filed that might point to them.

On the streets of NYC we did see some of that cooperation even in the movie -- the cops were there on the street, wondering where the National Guard was and we heard the occasional sirens in the background (I think). Manhattan would generally not be police jurisdiction, but military, based on the scale of the attack, but police would do what they usually do, which is assist civilians, direct traffic away from danger, evacuate, prevent looting etc.

There are frequent table-top exercises among law enforcement and emergency management for major incident response training; all the agencies would be in a place like Manhattan, with assigned roles. (Remember 9/11 and the list of first responders ...?)

SHIELD and the Avengers would just be the pointy end of the stick on the day (I can't see them participating in contingency planning ...). There's so much to be done there'll be room for everyone, and everyone will be doing their thing. It's the intersect points that can make for all sorts of drama (and humour), as they did in the film.

And yeah, the "didn't I see you on a wanted list when I was still in Cleveland?" would make for an interesting fic, but I doubt we'd see it happen in the heat of a battle like Manhattan. An undercover op, more likely.

It's the undercover ops and so forth that I was alluding to in my main post, actually, not just the battle in New York (though that definitely applies too).

I would love to see a fic where there was an agent who had a personal stake in something Clint or Nat did, and it made them incredibly determined to catch them. Perhaps they kept an unofficial, hard copy file that SHIELD had no way of knowing about. That person could cause a lot of trouble during a mission, especially if they managed to get the information to someone higher up on the government food chain. It wouldn't be enough to sway SHIELD, but it could make for a public relations nightmare: "They're criminals! Cold blooded killers! They should be punished for their crimes! But instead, everything they've done is just swept under the rug!"

Its very intersting because Natasha obviously agrees... she feels tremendous guilt over her past and is trying her best to redeem it, even though it isn't possible in the way she wants it to be.

I mean, she doesn't agree they should be punished, per se, but agrees that it can't be swept under the rug.

Awesome point! I completely agree. I think she might argue that the only way she can even start to pay for her crimes is to try to do some good.

But you can't erase people's memories, and maybe there's a hard copy equivalent of Natasha's Wanted poster somewhere.

Yeah. Work with, and mock. The usual, when it comes to agencies with similar but divergent mandates. Oh and information sharing? HA. Dream on.

Sad but true.

Black Widow has had her name around for quite awhile prior to joining SHIELD, so it is relatively feasible for other agencies not to know of her current alliance. (Well, probably for a time prior to New York). Hawkeye's code name absolutely became recognized after joining SHIELD. So after the pair of them teamed up; any government or independent agency probably fears/dreads them when they discover they are involved on their turf. At least until they determine (IF they determine) what their business was in their area. Any agency would find them to be a nuisance.
At least from a paperwork standpoint. :)

I do agree with the "clean slate" idea with both Clint and Natasha (and maybe other agents in the organization) but at the same time I feel like Fury or even the Counsel has information on all of the operatives incase something goes wrong, sort of an extra insurance policy to make sure that they can disavow all knowledge of them and that their hands are clean in case stuff hits the fan.

I think that other agencies would have heard of SHIELD but only in water cooler gossip and so when an agent or analyst finds out that it's real first they'd be impressed but at the same time might be a bit suspicious of what their true intentions really are. Also I think that after the Battle of Manhattan SHIELD agents are a bit more visible to agencies like the CIA, INTERPOL, and maybe even MI6 so I'm sure that the other agents of those organizations are wary of something that they had little knowledge of before then.

And I'm not sure why, but I just have an image of someone saying the prompt to Clint and him just laughing in their face and being "are you serous?" before jumping out the window.

Edited 2013-05-11 02:58 am (UTC)

I feel like Fury or even the Counsel has information on all of the operatives incase something goes wrong, sort of an extra insurance policy to make sure that they can disavow all knowledge of them and that their hands are clean in case stuff hits the fan.

Wonderful point! It makes me wonder what sort of information the Council might have, and if they could use against Clint and Nat, potentially. After all, in the movie, Natasha did mention that all of the Avengers are viewed as potential threats. In Clint and Nat's case, their criminal records might be something the Council could use as leverage against them.

And I'm not sure why, but I just have an image of someone saying the prompt to Clint and him just laughing in their face and being "are you serous?" before jumping out the window.

Lol! *grins* I was admittedly thinking of something a bit more involved, but I could totally see that reaction too, lol. :D

No doubt. I think with Nat they would use her Russian/Red Room roots against her, while Clint would a little harder since he's American-they could always go with the "he's crazy/suffered a mental breakdown" route since people are always eager to leave things alone once that gets thrown about.

Thinking on crossovers with agencies; overstated but still epic imo, would be IMF from Mission Impossible (hello, Mr. Brandt), NCIS (Gibbs and Natasha stare off; who would win?), White Collar (I could see Natasha pairing up with Cafferty on a former case or two), Law & Order (you know they would have immunity for any assassination, imagine the frustration Goren or Lenny or Lupo at letting them go).

Clint and Natasha would undoubtedly be a force that would be well remembered for all the trouble they cause.

Oh, those are great ideas! :)

I would absolutely love a crossover - any crime show, I'm not picky, lol - where Clint and Nat are implicated in a killing (either by mistake, or they actually did carry it out, per their orders) and law enforcement has to let them go, maybe even work with them. There are so many principled characters on a number of crime shows - they would *hate* having to deal with professional killers, even if they have government approval.

*grins* I was talking about this topic with one of my friends yesterday, and we wound up discussing CSI: Miami. We came to the conclusion that Horatio and Nat would clash as red heads, but Horatio and Clint could compare sunglasses. ;)

Edited 2013-05-11 03:25 am (UTC)

Or even Annie from Covert Affairs (since the show is about spy's) where Clint would have to prove to her that he never missed a few times while Nat and Annie compare notes on being women in a male dominated field.

I wonder... It's Steve in Avengers who goes to talk to the NYPD and get them helping. Probably because he's the person ordering people around at that point, and as a good strategist/leader would be thinking of using all available personel and resources of which the NYPD are right there. But. Do Natasha and Clint, having arrived on the scene with Steve at this point, ignore the police as useless, ignore them as trouble, avoid them because nothing good comes of law enforcement...? I can just see them on a private comm channel, Natasha saying something to Clint like 'don't shoot the guys in uniform this time; Steve's taken them under his wing.' And Clint being all, 'I suppose him taking a recently brainwashed assassin on his team should have told me he wasn't fussy.'

But yes, interesting discussion topic! :)

Haha! But I don't get that feeling...I think they decided to divide and conquer ("There are civillians trapped up here" "They are fish and barrel down there" "Go, we got this")...but you brought up a GREAT point of the captain being the leader at that point. My instict is that Clint and Natasha would utilize the police to save civilians (and would try to the save the police bc that's how they roll), but they were all trying to be as efficient as possible in that situation. But you made me think of something...if Clint is an ex-soldier (I think that isn't known yet, but hinted at?), how would that affect how he sees other forms of law enforcement and military? Does he like Captain America because he gave him a chance? Because he was a war hero? Because he's on their side? Because Coulson does? I think its interesting how everyone defers to Steve but I'm a bit surprised that Clint and Tony did so easily.

I think its interesting how everyone defers to Steve but I'm a bit surprised that Clint and Tony did so easily.

I think in Clint's case he was mostly following Natasha's lead in deferring to Steve (there wasn't really a lot of time to sit around thinking about it) although of course as a SHIELD agent he would likely have known ABOUT him beforehand and probably formed his own opinions.

In terms of Steve as Leader (and I know this is OT but it's a subject I find really interesting), I think in the heat of the moment, with NYC blowing up all around them, it made the most sense. As far as we know, Steve's the only one who's led others in battle/studied military tactics. Tony is... Tony. We saw Thor fight alongside other Asgardians, but he kind of let them do their own thing while he played One Man Wrecking Crew. Hulk Smashes. Nat's a spy and Clint's a sniper.

(Tony *does* give Steve the go-ahead to be the tactician, as well, after Loki sends the second wave of flying armadillo-whales through the portal.)