TOO BUSY FLAILING.

I had a long chat with franztastisch about this! After thinking about it, I don't want an origin movie, because I think that ship has sailed and the momentum of the universe should always be moving forward. I want a movie that grounds us in Earth with Natasha as the sole lead, and lots of other people showing up in support.

What would be really cool is if:
1) Natasha got a chance to really show off her spy skills. In a lot of ways her character can never fully show off in an ensemble, because at her best she stops the alien invasion showdowns before they've begun. So have her be tricksy and clever at the start of the movie, shutting down a global threat before breakfast.

2) The main plot is related to her origins, maybe another product of the Red Room is gunning for her, maybe she takes a leave of absence from S.H.I.E.L.D. to shut down the Red Room. Maybe another character is gunning for her, she converts them to her side, and they shut down the Red Room together?

3) Either the movie shows that human villains are sometimes the worst of all, or Natasha gets a chance to demonstrate human resilience by taking down some ridiculously super-powered guy. (or both!)

I like #2 and #3! And maybe have her having a learning curve in there as well, about how that ledger she keeps being on about isn't just "hers" but is the result of what was done to her, and that she can finally accept being one of the Good Guys.

As for a Hawkeye solo movie, I only want one after Natasha has at least two, so in the distant future. I think it would be really cool if the movie involved the transition of Clint Barton being the primary Hawkeye to Kate Bishop being the primary Hawkeye via buddy cop adventure. She's a young hotshot, S.H.I.E.L.D. agent or not, he's old and grumbly, but still badass, and together they fight crime! Again, what I love with human heroes is the chance to show the value of human hard work and human resilience.

We may have to agree to respectfully disagree a bit on this one ...

I know you're a bit tired of Clint, which is fair enough. But I'm not! :-) So... :

I wouldn't want to wait for two BW Widow movies before getting a Hawkeye one, given they take 3-4 years in between and Jeremy Renner (whom I adore) isn't getting any younger! Also, while I wouldn't mind a Kate Bishop mentoring angle, I still have instinctive issues around that whole "two Hawkeyes" concept (no matter how much I like the Fraction series as such) and so, having her as the PRIMARY Hawkeye?? Emmm ... no. Can't go there! Sorry ...

Edited 2014-02-21 04:24 pm (UTC)

Ok, I'm just going to say it. I want a Black Widow/Hawkeye movie. I know I should just want a Black Widow movie b/c then we would have a solo female superhero film, but...I want Black Widow/Hawkeye. So there :P

I think maybe they could have flashbacks as kids (so different actors obviously) b/c these to have very unique childhoods. And very different from each other as well.

As far a solo solo Black Widow movie...I just want a bad-ass spy movie with lots of personal development. And no Bucky romance please. ;)

I can subscribe to all of that, actually!

I'm good with a BW/Hawkeye movie, too. At the very least, I think they could totally pull off a Marvel short. Granted, the actor salaries alone probably make that near impossible. But, I can't imagine Ben Kingsley was cheap for his upcoming Mandarin short on Thor 2's DVD. So, maybe there's hope! :)

I'd watch that!

Totally down with that :)

See, on the reasons I wonder about a Black Widow and/or Hawkeye film is that neither of them really lend themselves to the traditional superhero arc type film (which, don't get me wrong, is part of the appeal for me) and whilst a spy style film or something like Secret Avengers would make my day, I don't know if it fits in with where the Marvel films are, at least in what we've seen of phase one and phase two. I'll take whatever we can get though :)

And if you write this? I WILL READ IT!

While it's not very detailed, here's a thought that's been swirling around the many empty areas of my brain.

In Cap 2 I wonder if we're going to see a "betrayal" by our beloved Black Widow. (All that talk of trusting no one and she's going to be the big disappointment.). I believe she'll do it to either try to persuade Bucky to switch to "the good side" and/or to take down the organization he's working for. The only person who knows she's going rogue will be Clint. The arrow necklace is some kind of tracking and/or comm device that allows him to keep track of her. It's a safety net of sorts that she can trigger if things go too far south. Her extraction plan, if you will.

I think it would be cool to have a Marvel short on the DVD for Cap 2 that shows BW and Hawkeye developing their plan. It gives some glimpses into Nat's Red Room experience to try to emphasize why Bucky should be saved from the person the organization made him. Clint's not thrilled about it, but she persuades him and the plan is perfect.

Until Ultron, that is. So, Avengers 2 is angsty with the Avengers thinking BW left them, Clint working with the Avengers against Ultron AND trying to get Nat to safety.

Just a thought...

Oooh, this is fascinating! Would love something like this.

Question though...you mentioned she is going to be the big disapointment...I hadn't heard that! Was this from an interview?

Interesting idea! From the Cap 2 trailer I'm getting stuff about terrorism, fear, state, security, all that jazz- things on that front being very different from what Steve would know, and Natasha as a SHIELD Agent and a spy, and her background... Natasha in the comics from Cold War to present day is almost the story of how the secuity system has altered in herself :)

I want a Clint cameo. I've been telling people that if there's a cameo or not and anyone tells me before the film? We will be having words, and none of them will be thank you! *grins*

I'm among "I'll believe it when I see it" crew - if not mistaken there was a Black Widow script in existence before Iron Man movies? So I'll believe this, I guess when we get an official confirmation.

I'd watch a Black Widow solo movie, I'd watch her movie with (some) other Avengers, I'd watch a Black Widow/Hawkeye movie; I'd watch a movie with her and her sidekicks Bucky (yes, please) and Clint. One important thing for those movies is not to forget that it's *her* movie. Both the character and the actress have the strength to carry it and have others (no matter who they are) in roles of helpers. Just give me more Natasha, give me glimpses into her past, into how she works, who she is, give her a way to make amends and wipe out that red ledger. But that's me, my primary focus when I watch are emotional story arcs.

Yes, this! :D

Heck, I'd watch a Black Widow commercial... ;-) Plus Liho. I'd like Liho to be in there, and be just as badass as the human (s)he's adopted.

Yes about the emotional story arcs. As long as they respect the character, I will love the movie no matter where and when it takes place.

I love the ideas floating around for the Black Widow solo movie :) Personally, I'd prefer a good old-fashioned spy movie that allows for character development like Sneaky and AF proposed.

And I really would love Hawkeye to get the same chance. I mean, he had such little screentime on The Avengers, let's afford him a bit of a backstory, rooted in the here and now. And of course I want Natasha to make an appearance in that movie too, just like I'd jump for joy if he got a role in hers. Because whatever happens, I will go down with this ship :)

YESSSSSSSS to all of this.

I hope that this is a movie for her to just be on an adventure. We don't need to see her in the Red Room, but I would love to see her kick bad guy butt. Which bad guy? Any of them!

I would also love to see her with another female superhero because we need more of those in the films. Don't let the X-Men have all the ass kicking chicks that talk to each other!

Yes, more ladies! All the ladies!

I am going to be weird (for a massive Hawkeye fan) and say that I'm not actually bothered if he doesn't get a film. Because (as hufflepuffsneak says) in terms of overarching story arcs, it's too late for an origin film, and as far as I can work out, all significant storylines in Hawkeye have something to do with his past, therefore a stand alone film would have trouble with set up. Or at least that's how I see it.

I'd much prefer a set up like Cap 2. You know, "Black Widow: Red Room" or something, with Clint playing the role Nat plays in Cap 2. The back-up-not-title-character-but-important role. So you get the majority of the plot about Natasha, and whatever plot point is important to her/her past in this film (I'm not wanting Bucky in the Nat stories personally, because I'd rather they brought in new characters for her - Yelena Belova, all the Red Room guys etc etc. Bucky is Cap's. Natasha can get a bunch of (female please!) people. And the Clint.) but Clint is important and throughout hints are dropped about his past or whatever. That way you get to continue the set up in Avengers, where Clint essentailly plays the damsel in distress role to Natasha's hero. Not that Clint needs to be saved all the time, just that the trope of the guy saving the girl doesn't have to apply in this relationship.

Of course, I'd love origin films for both of them. When talking to hufflepuffsneak about this, she was asking for the ideal film, and mine would be an origin film because I love origin films. But, as she pointed out, it's not really plausible given the over arching arc of the MCU now. It would make more sense to have the origin of Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel and/or Janet Van Dyme as Wasp and/or Jessica Drew as Spider Woman than the origins of those people we've already met as Avengers.

As to Kate Bishop taking over as Hawkeye... I'm not sure I'm up for that unless it brings in the other Young Avengers too. Partly because as a one off it would seem weird and partly because if we get Kate I WANT AMERICA BECAUSE HOT DAMN I LOVE HER.

How great would it be if we could get Kate AND America in the MCU?

And yes to Natasha getting her own supporting cast. I think both Clint and Maria could be part of her cast, and then add in Yelena Belova and it would be great. There was also a fake movie meme going around with three different widows and their conflicting relationships that was super interesting.

Are there any comics arcs we think could make good jumping off points for a Black Widow or Hawkeye movie, or a joint movie? My favourite Black Widow comic is Name of the Rose, which could make a good movie with some tweaking. The new Black Widow comic would also make a good pitch for a spy movie with superhero elements. Plus Liho!

For a joint movie, Widowmaker has a lot of continuity ties that might make it difficult (it would need major tweaking), but Kelly Sue Deconnick's Avengers Assemble: The Widow's Ledger could make a good joint movie.

I'm all about Name of the Rose, as you know, but I really want MCU!Natasha to completely normal human, no longevity. That would require a lot of tweaking.

The new Black Widow comic would be a great pitch, methinks! The Black Widow going off on her own adventures, plus a cute cat. I'm sold :P

I'm afraid I'm going to be a bit of a Debbie-Downer here.

I don't see a Hawkeye movie happening; not with Renner, anyway. I see him wanting to be a working actor, not tied into multiple multiple Marvel products that hamper his ability to do other work.

But I adore him as Hawkeye, so I don't want anyone else to do it either.

And, being a cynic, I'll believe a Black Widow movie when it goes into production. And knowing how Hollywood is, I don't want Clint (or Bucky, or Steve or any of The Guys) to have more than a cameo. Because otherwise the movie will become about The Men and Natasha will be a supporting player in her own movie.

That said, I'm still on pins and needles hoping and praying for a Hawkeye cameo in Cap2. And one of my best friends (and fellow Renner and Clint fan) is coming out to visit so we can go to the Cap 2 opening together!

Well, right now Renner manages to combine three different franchises with doing completely different movies too -- so I dont see that as an issue in and of itself. Plus, he committed to, I believe, five Marvel movies (mind you that would include the cameos, I think -- the one in Thor and the one I FULLY EXPECT in Cap2). Room for one more after Avengers 2!

That said, I frankly don't see a solo Hawkeye either, no matter how much I wish for one -- but I could see a doubling up with Black Widow. Like, soon...

I'd love a Hawkeye movie that shows him pre-SHIELD/during his first few years as an agent. Show his relationship with Coulson and how he has to deal with all the stuff from his past- his abusive father, the circus, and Barney's betrayal. How Natasha gets onto his radar and maybe show how he recruits her.

(and I'm sure this has been suggested a million times before me) but a Budapest movie would be awesome; Strike Team Delta being awesome and we'd even get Phil trying to save their butts and then wondering what he's gotten himself into as their handler as he watches Clint and Natasha escape a hailstorm of bullets to get to the plane (and making smart-ass quips as they do) ^-^

Well, we've seen Renner turn into completely different people in each movie he does, so maybe he could play a younger self? And until your *awesome* movie happens, we'll just write the script! :-)