Which seems to be using science to further humanity, if what we saw with the twins was any indication

Ooh, that does make sense, and does link it to HYDRA. I dunno, I got the feeling something else was going on. Are they doing this for profit? To fight the alien menace? So many possibilities!

HYDRA is based on a ubermensch ideology. Unlike Hitler, who contented himself with eradicating people not up to his specifications of Aryan, HYDRA is after something "better".

As for the infiltration, Pierce says it was to keep everyone busy and distracted, causing as many problems as they solved -- basically setting up SHIELD as the ultimate straw man, both figuratively and actually.

Edited 2014-04-11 09:00 pm (UTC)

Yes, but the end part implied that those scientists were using HYDRA for their own ends...

I thought they WERE Hydra, just not the part that was inside SHIELD. They were the ones doing the job that SHIELD!Hydra was distracting everyone from.

Sorry -- gotta run and work now (it's morning where I am ...) SIGH.

I don't think it was clear, but that theory works. Have fun!

But what does that mean? What is their end-goal? Just to have all the power?

I guess so? Red skull basically accused Hitler as insufficiently ambitious, so ...

I wrote a bunch of stuff below *sheepish grin* I have security thoughts, HELP ME, this is so ridiculous after our massive chat with franztastisch that this film went there!

Yep, pretty much! :-)

Will gather more coherent thoughts when I'm not stuck in the middle of a major Official Do/Herd.

I have the problem of should be sleeping, but I can't, winter soldier talk is happening! This is surely a good excuse to leave the herd also ;)

Not an option ... :-(

I could write you a note: please excuse from work type function on account of epic internet discussion.

Aww, I should sleep anyhow. Much chatting another time *hugs*

Hydra were trying to do what they attempted in the first Captain America film - take away people's freedom so they could be controlled and a superior world created. Think super soldiers, think Nazis, think one group of people deciding what 'people' means. But in the Zola voice over he explains how they didn't realise that people would be so angry about having their freedom taken away. That they would fight back as much as they did. So hydra cut it's losses, and in the background manipulated events in the world to create an atmosphere of fear. To make people want their freedom taken away.

Which is a very interesting thought, when you look at the world as it is today. Terrorism - see Iron Man 3 and the fear invoked by the Mandarin, by someone using the fear of terrorism for their own ends. Security and surveillance - the digtial age, all the details of us in electronic files, the amount of security cameras, how even Captain America and Black Widow can't escape SHEILD. Think Skye at the start of Agents of SHIELD. (I'm in the UK, so not seen many of the lastest Agent eps, please no spoilers!)

Cue that fear leading to SHIELD building hellicariers to watch the world. Ever read The Handmaiden's Tale by Maragaret Atwood? Excellent expression in there: freedom to and freedom from. The idea that you can either have the freedom to do things, to do whatever you want, or the freedom from things, being kept safe and watched over, but that you can't have both because they cancel each other out. Health and safety rules are a great example of this.

And then Hydra plans to use this for their own ends - to create MORE fear and destroy anyone who might cause trouble, who might fight for freedom and stand in their way.

Then there are the crazy end credits scientists who are all 'SHIELD, HYDRA, who cares? Let's experiement on people so we can get away with having the Scarlet Witch and her brother in the next film without using the banned mutant word' ;D

..sorry, I have FEEEEEELINGS on this!

Those are all incredible observations/comments. Does all of that make the movie frighteningly entertaining or entertainingly frightening?

I came out saying 'I HAVE THINKY THOUGHTS' and my other half who hadn't seen it yet replied, 'yes, but did you enjoy it?' And I basically went '...you need to watch this so I can tell you my THINKY THOUGHTS.' ;D There is a lot of modern security thinking packed into this film and I don't know whether to be hugely excited because I find that fascinating or be terrified at how plausible the thinking is.

YES. It's actually quite sophisticated, what they do with the security apparatus given how much of a growth industry it's been since 9/11, and the money that there is to be made in the creation of fear (or, in HYDRA's case, the philosphical/political advantages you can reap). The implosion of SHIELD will have incredible repercussions, but of course if you go from there to what I expect we see in Ultron, you will see the pendulum swing back because of the damage created by the absence of a credible security system.

Like you, I have feels/thinky thoughts/thinky feels about this whole thing.

I feel more fic coming on, too (shudders).

spyforaday said something interesting (on the winter solider chat on my lj), along the lines of that Age of Ultron could be a result of trying to seperate technology from human error. They seem to see the technology itself as a thing, neither good nor bad, which becomes good or bad on the basis of the intent of the people putting it to use. So in Age of Ultron seperate that it and make the technology independent. My thought following that though is that technology designed by people, built by people, with data input by people...that it can never truely be seperated out.

On it filling the gap created by the absensce of a security system, my early thoughts were that the MCU has Tony with an AI and then with automated suits in IM3, and why would it be long before he thought about combining the two, and that SHIELD going could be a trigger for this. because maybe there's suddenly a lot more trouble in the world or at least less security agency dealing with it, so Tony feels Iron Man is needed in too many places at once, and in IM3 he had to give the armours intructions, so now he needs something that can act on its own. (Cue Avengers showing up, because you already have help, Tony and Tony being well where the hell have you all been then?!)

Whoa. Question. What is your occupation? Because if its anything less than a genius, philanthorpist, billionaire, playgirl, you are in the wrong field.

This is brilliant. Thanks for sharing. Now looking forward to watching CA2 again on Sunday even more and having a much better understanding of what is actually happening.

And the only Margaret Atwood novel I have read is Cat's Eye. And I don't even remember what it was about. *hangs head in shame*

Aww *grins and blushes*. I did risk and security at uni, but I'm currently in a desk based sales job, selling despatch solutions, e-commerce, business solutions. I would love to work in the security side of things or get to study this some more. We did an analysis of the film Source Code which blew my mind. So yeah, I NEED to see Cap 2 again *cough*for a third time*cough*. Might have to wait for the DVD depending on savings, but SO MUCH in there :D I read it on the first level as Captain America being about the fight for freedom and Cap 2 being a continue of that in the new security system, which has drastically changed since WW2.

I've only read one of her books *shrugs*. The Handmaiden's Tale I remember being a bit heavy, but interesting. She's one of those authors I feel I should read more of. But then I see a new fantasy novel out and go for that instead ;)

Oh that is so interesting!!! Maybe there is a way you can transition back into it...of course I have no idea how and in what capacity.

Oooh, very interesting in regards to his comment "Internet is handy" in the beginning.

I will keep trying :) Just need to keep my chin up.

YES followed by his realisation of how much people can learn about each other and the control of it, and then Natasha spilling everything online... I'm getting wikileaks vibes I think, but maybe because I've seen The Fifth Estate. Hmm.