you keep breaking me.

Mission accomplished. :)

This all came out of this conversation last night in the aftermath of sugar's 'lost in these woods' when she posited the question of what Clint's ritual for Natasha would be after a mission to bring her back down (when the storytelling was what she did for him).

convo/meta:
http://be-compromised.livejournal.com/60569.html?thread=1587097#t1587097

okay, still not reaching too far into other people's meta and discussion just yet. i'm sure it's fabulous and probably accurate because this 'verse and the intent with which it is being delivered, is phenomenally clear. YES.

here are my thoughts: i'm using the layout of the temple in jerusalem (http://www.custance.org/old/seed/fig21s.jpg) for this analogy because sanctimonious themes abound.

the courtyard: a wide and vast open space to hold and conduct the slaughter of animals in offering to god. wherein blood, intestines, fire and people gather and mingle. (sweetly sick and delicate. It's a tangle from which you can't get free; your mind is a maze) it's brutal and gritty but absolutely beautiful. (His hands are soft. His hands are strong.)

the holy: it is incense and incense only that burns here. flesh, blood (but only once a year) and grain offering are not permitted. ("It can't work like that," he says. "Not here.") here the priests conduct the ceremonies of a constantly burning incense. full of smoke and perfumed air that wafts up and out to serve as a visual reminder to the people of the need to atone for their sinful state. (He keeps at it though. He's patient like that.)

holy of holies: the inner most sanctum that only the high priest was allowed entrance to on the day of atonement. only after the priest was cleansed thoroughly was he given access. (the day that he rinses the blood until the water runs clear) here the utensils and sacrifices were sanctified through holy anointing oil in order to have the penance accepted by god. (then you begin to understand: It was never about him at all.)

this liturgy serves as an extension of the 'out to get you' portion. previously he could only bring her to the point of leveling out (courtyard), then all this ceremonial preparation and labour occurs in 'between shadow and soul' (holy) until she's allowed him in far enough that he can now participate in the complete process of restitution (holy of holies). here, now, the limit does not exist.

That's absolutely perfect. I didn't even think of the temple metaphor but damn if it doesn't fit the bill. And yep, that's why I lined up the chronology the way I did too with the story order (not sure if you looked before posted this, but if you didn't double brownie points!)

And remember how we were talking about 'shadow and soul' being where we see him well and truly in love? well, in my mind, and the end of this section-- that's where you see it begin for her. i'd always imagined that 'some of your scars' was what she looked like well and truly in love (or as in love as she gets in this verse), and this is the lead-in to that.

And it has to work through ritual. The only knowledge can come through the experience, b/c words are off the table. These guys don't do words. And so there is the act. And repetitions of the act. And continual participation in the movement and the rhythm and the offering and the taking and cleansing and the sacrifice-- until it all begins to make sense. That is, when you get right down to it, the point of liturgy. It's telling a story through action, in the hopes the we will remember it better.

Gorgeous stuff, my friend. Truly.

Edited 2012-08-08 12:51 am (UTC)

woo! double brownie points! i've read and re-read everything so many times i sure as hell better have it all straight in my head.

yes, this is her time of awareness. and i'm assuming the paranthetical to me was her completing the thought? cos it wouldn't make sense for clint to say it seeing as how this is her pov.

i love how their silence is a means of affection. an acknowledgement of 'you can be alone here with me' and that it's a safe place just to exist (all that breathing). latching on to the participation bit. there has to be willful compliance and desire to be part of something in order for the belief to remain substantial. this is an excellent theme woven throughout. natalia romanova gives me all the control of self and awareness feelings. guh. THIS WOMAN. agency feels ftw!

as an aside, i kind of had trent and co wailing closer through my brain as a playlist. i mean how does this not resonate:

i broke apart my insides
help me
i've got no soul to sell
help me
the only thing that works for me
help me get away from myself

and on clint's part

you let me penetrate you
you let me complicate you

...

you can have my isolation
you can have the hate that it brings
you can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything

not to mention that chorus which nicely wraps up the whole religiosity thing we've got going on:

I want to feel you from the inside
I want to fuck you like an animal
my whole existence is flawed
you get me closer to god

OH, TRENT!

Edited 2012-08-08 03:58 am (UTC)

Oh Trent indeed. That song's been on the list for a while now. :)

The 'to me' was her compeleting the sentence-- finishing his thought--and i love everything that says about her headspace right there. He volunteers nothing but she fills in the blanks. And while I don't think she's wrong, the fact that she'll go there, even inside her mind, speaks volumes.

And the silence. Oh the silence. I can have my Disney assassins banter all damn day (and I love it, truly), but here, the silence is what makes it. This particular relationship is all about the negative space. (and strangely i'm loathe to say too much about this verse, to give away too many secrets, b/c it starts to lose the mysticism. once you try to explain worship, or devotion, or faith (or the lack thereof) you always run the risk of lessening the beauty. it's why apohasis is such a powerful and profound concept.)

THIS WOMAN. agency feels ftw!

Indeed. And in this story, her consent is very much thinly veiled imagery of her engagement in the reclamation process as a whole. **tackleglomps her**

**with permission**

Edited 2012-08-08 05:59 pm (UTC)

apophasis is one of my most favouritest words that ever existed. i love that you've harnessed the meaning of that word and pretty much personified it in relation to natasha. negative space is a character that enhances understanding. it seems to me that there's some sort of barrier fandom hits when a woman character who plays their emotions closer to the chest is portrayed in fic. they tend to mary sue or write them so ooc that it's mostly caricature at best. i've really only read a few works that remain true to natasha and all her forms, your take being one of them. it's probably why i love this world so much. cos really, as much as i love clint (and really any ship that deals with balance, true partnership and broken people being complimentary), this ship has always been about natasha for me.

apophasis = <333333333333333333333333

(not least b/c i am a massive theology dork.)

this was acutally the name of an earlier c/n story of mine where i really let the meta run wild, and it was a lot of fun. did you ever read it? you might like it. it's slighty more disney!assassins but only very slight. in fact, it wouldn't take much squinting to see that story with a cronenburg bent now that i think about it.

i think with dark, complicated female characters who don't emote there's this tendency to want to "fix" them-- to make them get in touch with the feeeeeeelings and get psycholanalyzed and therapy through their shit until they're OKAY (whatever the hell that means.) and frankly, it bothers me. i've also seen it manifest itself as a temptation to break down the character emotionally until they put themselves back together in a way that's more socially acceptable (read 'normal with normal emotions') and that's equally problematic. also problematic is the need to write such a character as a mass of psychological trauma just waiting to break through at the first sign of trouble. in my mind, someone this smart and this tough and who has seen this much shit has her coping mechanisms pretty well in place; i don't really second-guess the character's ability to deal with shit--I just assume they can. and of course trauma is going to come out, and of course emotional journeys are going to happen (otherwise why do we even bother?), but GAWD it needs to be handled delicately.

idk, this probably ceased to make sense long ago. :)

Edited 2012-08-08 06:38 pm (UTC)

is that the one they get 'not married' in a foreign language? i think i've read that over on ao3.

lol! right? what is that? women don't need to be fixed thankyouverymuch society. being damaged is all part and parcel of the whole human being gig. methinks media has intercepted that message, perverted it and spewed it out the other end. the sad part is that the masses eat that shit up like manna from heaven. yikes. my everyday conversation with people often consists of overturning this deeply entrenched thinking. whenever i ask them point blank if the representation of women in media is accurate and true to life in comparison to that of a man half the time they have no idea what to say. and i'm like, BECAUSE IT'S NOT. LET ME SHOW YOU ALL THE WAYS. the other thing that completely incenses me is the internalised misogyny that most women accept because of said failures. it's maddening and heartbreaking. sorry, idek where i was going with this. just, yes. yes to everything that is problematic and needs to be fixed.

I think so. she drags his ass to an impromptu middle fo the night russian orthodox wedding, and ti's cross-cut with their first meeting.

really, there aren't enough facepalms in the world for that shit. We need to stop being so damn sacred of complexity full stop. another irksome irk i find with strong female fandoms is the desire to reduce her male partner to less-than so she can always come out looking better/stronger/smarter/faster/"all the things more than you because women are awesome and don't forget it." it can tip the equlity balance in a way i find very unpalatable. strength and power aren't zero-sum games. one person having it does not necessarily require a reduction in the other.

yeah, i HAVE read that one. i enjoyed the wordless nature of the love in that one too. sorry, i'm not very good with leaving feedback. i tend to lurk. ao3 makes it easy to forget to leave a review.

We need to stop being so damn sacred of complexity full stop.

yes yes and YES. reasons that zoe saldana quote (http://everythingismusical.tumblr.com/post/28823721072) floating around is so amazing but will sadly be over used by week's end.

the desire to reduce her male partner to less-than

ugh, misandry is NOT the answer to equality. this misses the point completely. yes, we've proven time and again a woman can accomplish things men can but that's not the ultimate goal. recognition and acknowledgement of rights and BEING is what we are fighting for. how that gets so skewed is beyond me. reasons partnership is one of my most favourite things in the world.

side note: have you seen political animals? it kind of hits on all these points.

nah, don't worry about it. it wasn't a backhanded troll for comments. i'm just glad you enjoyed it; it was pretty much my first attempt at trying to take the words away from these two.

(incidentally, that is actually my primary irk with AO3. it's brilliant from a consumption perspective, but it's like tumblr for words. click a button if you like and no incentive to engage. ah, but that's a discussion for another day.)

i had seen that quote floating around but didn't realize it was hers. a thousand yeses. i think we'll start to get a lot more traction as a species when we throw men out as a yardstick for anything (same with women too). either/or gets so tiresome; i'd like the world I live in to be both/and (and full of wild purple technicolor too).

(i have not but now i'm intrigued...)

Edited 2012-08-08 08:28 pm (UTC)

in my early days of online fandom i used to comment on EVERYTHING. i've gotten lazy in my old age. sometimes i feel bad about it especially when it's something worth praising.

(yeah, tumblr is very much so fast food blogging and ao3 is like some sushi pick-up place. a wee bit more substance but there's not place to sit down and eat! i guess this is why i'll never give lj up cos where else am i going to get epic meta discussions and squee that has meaning?)

that show on lifetime the conversation is kind of brilliant. (where the zoe quote is from) it's just women talking about life and sometimes they talk about men and sex and kids but mostly they talk about value as a person and what it means in the context of female with a heavy side order of geeking out over things. it's actually pretty cool.

i say down with the measuring system too. what matters in the end is if you've done the right thing. granted the morality scale may not be any better or worse than the existing scale but there's an inherent voice in humans that raise flags or yield caution that should be listened to more. ...omg what are we even talking about anymore?

SUPER SEXY SPIES RULE! there, brought it back on topic.

yeah, it's why i can't give up ye olde LJ either. they meta for me is everything. so much of my creative process comes from the conversations i have here--i'd go so far as to say that most of my fics are spawned in some way or another out of the dialogue. this shit don't happen in a vacuum.

SUPER SEXY SPIES!!!!

(... and i am happy to report that thoughts are happening for 3rd-party scenes and such.)

Edited 2012-08-08 11:49 pm (UTC)

it's nice to be a part of that after years of inactivity. it's kinda weird... but also like bike riding, so. the colliding forces of awesome help paint a great picture of character and churn out brilliant satisfying story telling. i forgot that feeling. le sigh.

(omg, yay! i was also thinking that coulson, at the very least, knew about the sexing since 'bait' but chose not to say anything when he erased the footage and audio. i mean what clandestine intelligence agency doesn't bug every nook and crany of their facility? a lazy one. SHIELD is anything but.)

(well, SOMEONE erased the fottage... O_o)

i think with dark, complicated female characters who don't emote there's this tendency to want to "fix" them-- to make them get in touch with the feeeeeeelings and get psycholanalyzed and therapy through their shit until they're OKAY (whatever the hell that means.) and frankly, it bothers me. i've also seen it manifest itself as a temptation to break down the character emotionally until they put themselves back together in a way that's more socially acceptable (read 'normal with normal emotions') and that's equally problematic.

I went round and round all day about jumping in here or just having longer rambly think-y thoughts on my journal (answer: both), but this is touching on some things I'm really struggling with in some of the stories I'm writing (which I will grant you are closer to Disney than Cronenburg, but aren't entirely either) - where is the line between "fixing" and a character "healing" as a part of their growth and development? Because I'm a whole-hearted believer in characters coming to places and situations that help to heal them (Tony becoming and embracing Iron Man, for instance) as well as the situations that crop up that can break parts of a character down (Clint being possessed by Loki falls into this category, I'd imagine.)

And I'd think that the position that Natasha ends up in with SHIELD and her partnership with Clint, and eventually with the rest of the Avengers, that has to be a stronger place, a stronger foundation than what she had with the Red Room and would be a situation from which healing arises, which would change her. But I'm not sure I see what the differences are? I don't want to give her flat, pat answers or solutions, but I also want her to have a chance to grow and develop, if that makes any sense?

Or, you know, I could just be having one of those attacks of "oh god, what the hell am I actually doing" sorts of doubt-y moments that sneak up on you when you're not expecting them.

Well, first off, i think emotional growrth is going to be a component of every story. You have to have conflict, overcome it, learn something at the end of the day--that's pretty much the blueprint for every story ever told. So it's not really about whether you have an emotional journey or not, it's simply how it's handled.

What gets me uneasy is when very spefically drawn characters (read: dark, complex women) are given conflict to help achieve a more normative response-- and the two best and most egregious examples i can think of are forced sexual trauma (rape, triggers, "oh, my awful past!", etc.) or "oops i got pregnant!" in order to force this woman to deal with her demons and normalize and confront emotions and get in touch with her inner earth goddess nurturer or whatever so by the end of the story OMG! Look at how fully actualized she is! All it took was some normative shit to be able to confront her inner womanness! Look how much better behaved she is now! Look how well she plays with others! She can give hugs! She can kiss her man with confidence! She can hold that baby with pride!


Okay, now i've gone off on a snarky tangent, allow me to stop being a jackass for a minute and actually unpack this. None of this-- NONE OF IT--is bad in and of itself. Not at all. A story can take me any place it damn well pleases---if it's told well. And for me, well = with nuance and subtlety. I need the conflict to feel organic and not contrived and the same thing goes with the emotional response of the protagonist. I want it to feel earned. What i dont' want is fixing for the sake of fixing or worse... some kind of normative fixing that doesn't feel appropriate to this character we're talking about.

For natasha, she no doubt has issues. She no doubt has demons she needs to fight. No doubt at all. So it's not a matter of if they come up but how they are handled. I guess what i'm trying to say is that she needs to be able to heal herself on her terms. It may not look normal or even healthy but it really doesn't matter if it works for her. And it doesn't mean that she has to be less complex or even less dark.

Okay now i'm just a rambling jackass. Is any of this making sense?


---also, this who exchange was me just shooting off my mouth in the most general way possible. It certainly wasn't meant to cause doubt for anyone, least of all you my dear. :)

(now i just need that "let me love you" gif...)

Edited 2012-08-09 12:08 am (UTC)

Okay, now i've gone off on a snarky tangent, allow me to stop being a jackass for a minute and actually unpack this. None of this-- NONE OF IT--is bad in and of itself. Not at all. A story can take me any place it damn well pleases---if it's told well. And for me, well = with nuance and subtlety. I need the conflict to feel organic and not contrived and the same thing goes with the emotional response of the protagonist. I want it to feel earned. What i dont' want is fixing for the sake of fixing or worse... some kind of normative fixing that doesn't feel appropriate to this character we're talking about.

For natasha, she no doubt has issues. She no doubt has demons she needs to fight. No doubt at all. So it's not a matter of if they come up but how they are handled. I guess what i'm trying to say is that she needs to be able to heal herself on her terms. It may not look normal or even healthy but it really doesn't matter if it works for her. And it doesn't mean that she has to be less complex or even less dark.

Okay now i'm just a rambling jackass. Is any of this making sense?


You're not a jackass, hon. :) And I see (or at least I'm pretty sure I see) where you're going with that. For me, whether or not a story is in character (or at the very least, whether or not the OOCness has a believable path to get there - show me *why* they're different now!) is of paramount importance.

In a way, it's some of the same kind of thing that happened with Kara Thrace - the baby thing in particular, because I'll admit right now to being a complete sucker for well done (read: in character) babyfic in numerous fandoms... but it's that "in character" part and dealing with how they are or are not dealing with it, in a manner that's true for them, and that's what appeals to me about it (which may or may not make any kind of sense, idek.) It was figuring out how she would react to this - and it often did the opposite of fixing her, god knows... I'm not sure where I was going with that. But yeah. And I might have a seriously angsty C/N fic almost done that deals with pregnancy but most certainly *doesn't* involve "fixing"... quite possibly the opposite, yikes


---also, this who exchange was me just shooting off my mouth in the most general way possible. It certainly wasn't meant to cause doubt for anyone, least of all you my dear. :)

I think most of my concern (which I was already having because I've gotten to "that point" in things where you look at what you've written so far and just go "what is this even?") is wanting to do her justice, and not make things pat or easy for her, and she's so hard to pin down sometimes (in part because I'm playing pretty close to movie canon and there's just not so much of it.) So I was at the point of going to the flist and being all "please tell me this isn't crap!" in any case. This just brought up a particular point I needed some clarity on. :D

(now i just need that "let me love you" gif...)

Ask and ye shall receive. :D

late response is late...

I think at the end of the day, you just have to write the characters in a way that feels authentic to you. And what that looks like and sounds like is going to be different from everyone, which is why there never is (nor should there be) one definite fanon take on how to write anything. And likewise, readers will tend to gravitate to portrayals that ring true to them. We all bring something different to the table, and we're all looking for different things, the things that resonate the most to us as readers and as writers.

A very good friend of mine in k/l fandom (who is also my bestest and most trusted beta in the world) and I always said that we were satisfied with a story when we got to the point where we could justify every decision we made. We knew it was done (and good) if we could defend every single word and its reason for being there. Now, we take our words pretty seriously (b/c we are ridiculous that way, and we're also both argumentative as hell--it's part of our charm), but I feel like that's the general idea. As long as you know why you did it and how you got there, I think that's all you need.

Edited 2012-08-14 03:21 pm (UTC)

Yes. This. All of this. <3 <3 <3