So much yes. <3

AUs always squick me a little, particularly High School ones, which often reflect (my goodness, I'm going to sound condescending here, but what the hell, it's how I feel ...) the age and life experience of the writer rather than the characters. A notable exception is Sarea_Okelani's "Wet Hot Avenger's Summer", which I rather enjoyed. (Sorry, writing this on my bb and can't link properly.)

Why do A/Us squick me? Because I like the characters of Hawkeye/Clint Barton and Black Widow/Natasha Romanoff. Turning them into something from the 19th century or a Western or ... more often than not results in an exercise where the story is about people who just happen to have the same name, not the characters I'm so fond of. Basically, I like them in the world that has shaped them.

That said, there are some good A/Us that I've read, usually based on recs from people I trust. I read those as stories that have their own intrinsic merit, without necessarily trying to find commonalities with "my" Hawkeye/Black Widow. I adore, for example, Hufflepuffsneak's "They Will Rock You", which is basically a blast of fun.

The stories you've recced in the ATTF posts are all ones I've read and liked, especially Set Fire to the Third Bar." That was a piece of art in its own right, and did exactly what I personally need to see done in terms of presenting itself as an alternate universe -- the alternate nature was the very premise and main conceit of the story.

All this to say, I probably won't ever write an A/U; my personal comfort zone ends with creating stories that aren't canon, but can plausibly be slid in around its edges.

Edited to remove some typos (using bb has its challenges - apologies for those that remain).

Edited 2013-05-03 08:41 pm (UTC)

That is... well, very understandable. And... OK I have nothing. I personally love AUs, but then again, the characters jobs aren't ever anything I recognise (as in, I can't actaully apply any of my own experiences to their lives) so in a way everything is an AU to me, and I can be very malleable in my interpretation of characters. That said, I almost always prefer well written and thought out non-AUs to AUs, though this pairing and fandom is somewhat of an anomoly for me because in the past I always went in search of the spy/military AU. And here, that's the canon, so... :P

ETA I guess I also like HS!AUs etc because that is the one this I can always find things to relate to, because that is something 99% of people experience in some way or another. And yes, you are right in the fact that they are often more of a reflection on the writer than the characters, but... I just love a good HS!AU. :P

But I'm gald you agree with my recs. I feel if I rec stories that are enjoyed by people that don't read those kinds of stories, I'm reccing the good stuff. :P

Edited 2013-05-03 08:54 pm (UTC)

Interesting. I wonder, do what if type AUs - such as what if Loki took Natasha instead of Clint - bother you then, since the characters still have the same experiences up until that point, still arrive at the same point as it were?

I second this. I don't hate AUs and I'll occasionally read them, especially if it's an author I really like. But, I don't go out of my way to find them. To me what makes up a character are the experiences that made them that way and if you take that away usually they are somebody else. For instance why I like Natasha is the fact that she was forced into the Red Room program and how her life is reflective of that experience. If there is no Red Room then it's not Natasha anymore. I know that people like exploring what characters would do in different situations and time periods, but at that point I think you are delving into original fiction more, which is great, but it's not always what I'm looking for when I read fanfiction. This pretty much goes for all fandoms. I especially never understood Harry Potter stories without the magic. What's the point?

Heh - what you just aid about AUs is something that can be said for fanfiction in general (badly written, or simply when you don't agree with someone's characterization) - people write characters who happen to have the same name, but are nothing like those actual characters. So what good fanfiction is and how to do characterization properly, not just in AU is .... a discussion on its own. Any sort of FF can be incredibly OOC I think.

It's no secret that I love AUs. I've think I've written five at this point. Movieverse Clint and Natasha are hard for me to write, 'cause we don't really know the canon versions yet (my other fandoms are books and television shows, and you just get to spend so much more time with the character). As a result AUs are both easier and harder to write, 'cause you have more room to move but less to work with. For me, The only two things that are set in stone is that Clint has perfect aim and that Natasha is, or will fight to be, her own person.

I think a lot of my ideas about both of them are basically... supplimented by other fics and also comics. Because, as you say, you don't learn a great deal about them in MCU (Clint especially). Though there are things I'd say do come across in them. Like, Natasha's scary competence. And Clint being a bit snarky ("Better call it Coulson, I'm starting to root for this guy" / "Captain, it would be my genuine pleasure") But again, this is supplemented by comics and stuff.

I love AUs, so I'm coming from that bias *grins* and I love all kinds of AUs - the 'what ifs', like what if Loki took Natasha instead of Clint, the crossover/fusion AUs, and the completely off the wall AUs, like the coffee shop and High School AUs.

I find it interesting the way you said how you make Clint and Natasha Clint and Natasha when you’ve taken away a great deal of what makes the canonically Clint and Natasha. Especially because this comm came about from the Marvel films, so we don't really have much canon anyway. I think it starts from who you see the characters as being: what you extraploate about them from the films, and what you add in from the comics or fanon. Then in the 'what ifs' you're only changing a point in 'canon' and going on from there, so it's not really an issue. When it comes to the complete, off the wall AUs where it is relevant though...when you’ve taken away a great deal of what makes the canonically Clint and Natasha.

Okay, so nature vs nuture, how much of them is them and how much is from their life experiences? (ie. Clint was born with good vision, but why did he learn archery?) If there's something you believe comes from their life experiences that you want to keep, do they have the same or similar experiences in the AU world? (ie. Is Natasha raised by the Red Room, or a militarised programme, or to be an assassin, that would makes her a 'killer' and a spy, or did she have epxeriences that would make her wary of people, or...?) So I guess the answer to what do you see as being fundamentally Clint and Natasha for me is what I want to see, and to keep, for a particular story or, if reading a fic, what I think fits with that particular story, the way it's been set up. (That's a big part of the fun in writing AUs for me though, seeing how much difference can make things the same but fresh.)

And a thing in addition: something I do like in AUs is nods to canon, like the coffee shop called 'Hawkeye's' because Clint used to be in the circus, a snippet of dialoge that's from the film, Clint putting his leg up on Natasha's chair, or even tinier little throwaway things. They make me smile a lot.

Here, here! Excellent points!

I agree wholeheartedly with this: That's a big part of the fun in writing AUs for me though, seeing how much difference can make things the same but fresh!

Yeeeesssss. I think one thing that's interesting about fanfiction is that it's basically interpretation. So whatever you write - canon-compliant things or AUs or crossover/fusions; there's your personal .... frame of reference that comes into play? Like, I would see one thing as pivotal, you would pick a different thing and it would result in slightly different interpretations. (This is just a complicated way of me saying that I agree).

I tend to stick to what I see as basic traits, and maybe some canon-storyline things.

First of all, no happy childhoods.*

Regardless of the details, I think it’s pretty pivotal that Clint came from a broken home and that his brother (who he loves) didn’t stick around and that his dad was an abusive alcoholic.

For Natasha, I can’t imagine a version of Natasha in which she wasn’t used as a tool by bad people. Whether that’s a variant of the Red Room, a criminal organization, or just some shady characters, for me Natasha being raised as a weapon is a requirement. That’s part of how she is so badass and in control of her emotions (another two major characterization points for me).

Actually, one of my persistent frustrations with fanfics (regular and AU), is that I feel like often Natasha is not written as badass and in control and she is shown to be in IM2, the Avengers, and the comics.



*I’ve read and enjoyed several AUs where Clint and Natasha meet and find decent homes as teenagers but it’s hugely important to me that they go through some hellish living situations before finding a decent home.

I think you can get into that "must control my emotions and reactions" that Natasha does (and once had to do) without being used as a weapon. I find Natasha can be very in-control and very badass without necessarily being a violent character or ever having to use a gun. That's the beauty of AUs, you can change things.

I agree with Anuna, I don't think Natasha has to have been used by people to be a Natasha we'd recognise. But I do think she'd have to have had a pretty shitty childhood in someway (and that can encompass everything from neglect to forced marriages to physical abuse).

I agree with everything else though, expecially Clint having a brother who abandons him (because my Clint has a BUTTLOAD of abandonment issues.)

I once didn't understand AUs. I didn't read them. They didn't interest me in the slightest. But I changed my mind because I found one really good AU. It got me interested in the concept and I found that I enjoyed AUs. I started looking at them differently.

An AU can help a writer get deeper into a characterization. Think of it this way - if you're having problem doing a math problem, the common solution can be as simple as getting up and walking around to clear away the confusion. Or seeing it from a different angle. I used to turn my math homework upside down if I was having problems finding the right answer. An AU is turning canon upside down. It's still the same people at the heart of it but with a different twist. Turning it upside down forces the writer to work harder at characterizations. To make sure they've found the nuance that makes that character the character that everyone recognizes.

Also, I find this conversation really strange in a fandom that exists in twenty thousand universes, give or take a hundred. At this current moment, how many worlds does Clint Barton inhabit? How many lives has Natasha lived in the pages of the comics? It's a fandom that exists on the "I wonder what would happen if we did this" principle. It's not one book or one movie. It's a whole universe of timelines and possibilities.

Yes, this particular corner is all about the movie but there is only so many ways we can rework those random 75 minutes of film. But doing anything outside of this film canon is considered AU. So where do you draw the line? What is too AU?

Ooh! What was the tipping point AU for you? Or was it from another fandom?

Aah you see, the myriad of Marvel universes that these characters inhabit still have them as The Archer and The Spy. There are little changes but the core character doesn't change, else you couldn't call all those characters Clint Barton and Natasha Romanov. So I think fandom AUs are the removal of these elements.

AUs are, to me an opportunity (or a challenge) to think outside the box. If you change A or B how do these characters develop, work etc? What if, Clint or Nat had happy childhoods (yeah, I can imagine that, too). What if they had ordinary jobs? What if they lived in different time and age? And especially how do you still make them the characters they are or supposed to be, while playing with the changes you just implemented.

I love AUs. They give freedom, they offer more room for creativity. I have few in the works, and I think I've written/published one AU 'verse which was fun to work with. I'd agree with frea_o the whole point are characters. Both Nat and clint are competent in whatever you choose them to be doing. Clint I see as steady, loyal, level headed, not impulsive (I just ... don't get characterizations in which Clint can't control himself, or his anger). He has good self control (sniper, possibly military background? He needs to be able to control himself remarkably well), he does good calculations (strategy, planning, or simply thinking about outcomes of ... whatever he's doing). He's an intelligent guy who likes to keep himself in the back (unlike Tony who needs to shine). (Like... I have an AU where Tony is setting up a music band? And Coulson is the one who discovers Clint. He's heard him sing and play guitar but what the whole bunch doesn't know is how many instruments Clint can play, or how well he's able to notice something isn't working and how to fix it. Parallel that with Tony and Clint in the fight scene where Clint tells Tony how to go about Chitauri.)

Natasha - one of the things I find pivotal is that she is someone who fought to have her life (back) in her hands. Maybe she lived in an abusive relationship, got herself out and reclaimed her life. That takes amazing courage, willpower and strength. Maybe she's an actress who lived under control of a manager and then found the way to get her career in her own hands when she got older I did write (http://archiveofourown.org/works/694195) that particular AU (http://archiveofourown.org/works/711736). Nat knows how to fight for her own interests. She's practical, she can compartmentalize, she is selectively loyal, she can control her emotions - but that doesn't mean she's unemotional (seriously, have you seen the array of emotions she displays in both IM2 and Avengers? I ... have no idea why lot of authors write her as a cold or unkind person.) As for Clint/Nat relationship, I usually base it on friendship and mutual trust, on co-dependency that doesn't reduce either of them, and them mutually knowing who the other is/what they need. (In the movie, we see Nat knowing what he needs from her after he wakes up). They're quietly affectionate with each other, but first and foremost they're friends and people who like being in each others company. It's interesting exploring how they got there. If both are violent characters, one of my headcanon things is that Clint isn't afraid of her. In any story, they're equals.

Some of my AUs? They're both actors in one, in another she's a pro dancer and he is a celebrity sports star (as much as one can be as a pro archer - so yeah a background sort of sports celebrity, haha) and they're on Strictly come dancing and yes I need to write that. *headdesk* In another AU, most of Avengers are police detectives (Tony and Clint are partners - and it's a scary competent duo. i find two of them work amazingly well together - both are smart, both are snarky, bad guys don't stand a chance). In that particular AU Clint is a single parent and Natasha is his daughter's dance teacher. I love that AU. I should sit and properly write that AU.



Edited 2013-05-04 05:47 am (UTC)

I literally have no idea why I didn't say this before but DANCING AU OH MY GOD I AM STILL VERY EXCITED FOR THAT.

You have no idea how much I have built on that AU in my head. I have about 1000 ideas for them in that 'verse and I love it. (and, of course, am happing to brainstorm about it if you want JUST PUTTING THAT OUT THERE. :P)

Alsoalsoaslo that Tony and Clint detectives AU sounds fabulous. :D

Currently my favorite AU is hufflepuffsneak's Knight's Tale AU (http://archiveofourown.org/works/694569). I loved the circus ones written by inkvoices -- Dust to dust (http://inkvoices.livejournal.com/111923.html) and the nature of dust (http://inkvoices.livejournal.com/108096.html) (great example of how to think outside the box and place characters in different circumstances and still keep them in characters, and keep some of their canon storylines - like debt - but do very interesting things about them). That's what comes to my mind right now (oi, it's still early here), but basically... ALL OF THE AUs.


... I am still waiting for someone to write me that AU where Avengers work as animal rescue team. Or tornado hunters. Or in Wild West (I think I prompted that for the mini promptathon).

Thank you for the rec. And yes, you should write that dancing AU. I saw this quote the other day, and thought of the potential fic. "Dancing is a vertical expression of a horizontal desire" - Robert Frost. I'm glad the fic is still on your radar.

Favorite Clintasha AUs, a by no means all-inclusive or in order list:

1. Here the City Code is Lock and Load (http://archiveofourown.org/works/497651) - post-apocalyptic AU by Sproid, explicit for violence, sex, etc.


2. Clint Barton and the Unfinished Business (http://archiveofourown.org/works/582008/chapters/1045109) by hufflepuffsneak - an archaeology AU and a personal favorite. Rated T, mild sexual content, swearing, action movie violence.


3. Queen of Attolia (http://archiveofourown.org/works/579149/chapters/1039282) also by hufflepuffsneak - medieval-type AU and another fantastic fic. Rated Teen, violence, dismemberment, etc.


4. How Can I Help You Today? (http://archiveofourown.org/works/482409/chapters/839337) by lar_laughs - drugstore AU that is delightful and hilarious. One of the first fics I read in the fandom. With hilarious gag reel included! I don't remember any warnings.


5. bang bang, baby, you're dead (http://archiveofourown.org/works/440589) by CallMeBombshell - noir AU. Rated Teen, warnings for violence, language. I'm a sucker for a good noir.


6. Inverse Function (http://archiveofourown.org/works/493095) by Slipsthrufingers. Genderswap AU, and one of my favorites in the genre. Rated T, language, violence, I think.


7. treat 'em and street 'em (http://archiveofourown.org/works/480923/chapters/836173) by mmtion - a Medical AU! Natasha's a doctor, Clint's a physical therapist, and the Avengers are fantastically sorted out throughout a hospital. Lots of warnings for blood, gore, fighting, violence, swearing, basically anything hospital related.


8. After the War (http://archiveofourown.org/works/474568) by ashen_key - WWII AU, and really delightful. Warnings for some language, rated Teen.

And that, my friends, are some of the AUs I adore in the fandom. I've written a few (I've got a series ongoing where Natasha and Clint are zoologists and then I turned them into pirates once, and I made Clint a--oh, that's a spoiler--in Woman in the Crosshairs), and they're always going to be my favorite thing to read. There are dozens more I can probably recommend…in lots of fandoms!

Edited 2013-05-04 07:32 am (UTC)

I second After the war - so so very lovely and delightful and I just wish there was more.

HOW DID I MISS OTHERS. O_O I need to read more!

I am a very big fan of AUs...many of my favorite fics are AUs. :)

But, I second everyone who has said that the characters have to feel like the characters from canon, in at least some form. For instance, I can't, in any life, imagine Natasha smacking bubble gum and talking like a valley girl (unless she's under cover). Otherwise...please, no. Likewise, I can't imagine Clint being a genuine rich snob... Rich, perhaps, but a snob, no.

I've actually been playing with an AU where Clint and Natasha are both disabled in some form, in a way that makes it impossible for them to ever become Hawkeye and The Black Widow. I don't know if I'll ever complete it, (I actually got distracted working on another AU) but I started the disability AU with the question: "Can I keep these two in character in this sort of setting?"

I honestly think it's possible. I think everyone (whether its a fictional character or an actual person) has key traits that makes them *them.* Some of these traits are enhanced by or suppressed by events, but they're still there.

For Clint and Natasha...I think they have always been strong. That strength was enhanced by their experiences, but I think they've always been the type of people who would pick themselves up and keep going, rather than collapsing in a fit of tears. Similarly, I think they're the type of people who are willing to make hard choices and live with regret.

Clint, specifically, I imagine always having a sense of humor...one that's sarcastic and sometimes biting. I also imagine him as being a bit of a loner...someone who's perfectly comfortable watching from afar, rather than being in the middle of the action (though he's definitely not shy). For that reason, he's also very good at reading people, because he spends time observing them.

Natasha...I think she's always been a little bit harsher than most...perhaps that's what made her attractive to the Red Room in the first place. She's fiery, and determined, and confident, someone whose first inclination is to jump into the action, rather than running in the other direction.

For me, those traits are the core of the characters. I can live with other changes, as long as those traits are still there in some way.

Edited 2013-05-04 08:13 am (UTC)

I completely agree with you, on all points. And I LOVE the sound of that disability AU; it sounds fascinating. I really hope you manage to write that.

I love AUs. I love seeing how people adapt the characters to different scenarios and still keep the essence of the characters. I didn't have the courage to write an AU myself until recently, and it's a challenge, but a fun one. I'm working on two, one's a WWII AU that I'm very excited about, another is an AU where Clint never joined SHIELD but became a freelance criminal instead, and he and Natasha become a crime duo (would that be called a Bonnie-and-Clyde AU?) In both cases I've kept Clint's childhood basically the same, but Natasha was more challenging. In one she's the daughter of Russian intellectuals who were forced to flee the Soviet Union in the late 1920s, in another she's the daughter of an organised crime boss and she ran away to become a freelance hit woman.

Two of my favourite AU fics are The Nature of Dust (http://archiveofourown.org/works/631950) by inkvoices ( Mature, sex, mild rope bondage (aka rope!fic), offering sex as payment, kind of personified weather trying to kill people/nature as violent and deadly) and History's Mistakes (http://archiveofourown.org/works/485546/chapters/845598) by bob5fic (Mature, author chose not use warnings).



Edited 2013-05-04 08:44 am (UTC)

And I'm excited about reading both of those! :D the daughter of an organised crime boss and she ran away to become a freelance hit woman = intriguing. Because when it comes to Natasha's Red Room background there seems to be those who think it drummed connections with people out of her, that others were competition or they were all treated as things not people, so she has no concept of family or friends, and then the other view that the Red Room girls were sisters, forged together by their experiences. But both are different to Natasha actually having a full family, as it were, and growing up with that family - not being taken away from them, or being orphaned - and then the idea of her choosing to leave that family... yep, great deal of intrigue over here.

Wow, one of your favourites *blushes and tackle hugs you*. History's Mistakes! I could wax lyrical on that fic, and have in its comments lol. Love that one!

Thanks so much for reccing Soiree! I missed it when it was posted and I'm so glad I got to read it. Totally delightful.

Woo! I'm glad I could spread the love!

I went looking for my favorite AUs and realized, after a missing half hour of laughing and gleeing over my reading history, that a lot of my favorite AUs aren't necessarily in this corner of fandom so this list is not as nearly complete as I wish it was. Also, I won't re-recc anything but I'm a huge fan of everything on the other lists here!

There's also the distinction of AU versus Crossover. I leave it up to the author to tell me what they think it is so if they don't mark it as AU and only as Crossover, I go along and don't think of it as an AU.

Here's No Game (http://archiveofourown.org/works/598426) by ashen_key - Daemon AU. I very much enjoyed the discussions surrounding the choices of daemons that happened before this was published. (rated teen and no warnings)

Also keeping your head above water (http://archiveofourown.org/works/568330) by ashen_key which is a stunning use of characterization! (rated teen and no warnings)

My Secret Santa gift: Pas De Deux (http://archiveofourown.org/works/638693) by hiddencait - Natasha is a dancer and Clint is a bodyguard. (rated teen and warnings for rape and non-con)

I Think You Worried for Me Then... (the serpent's tale has come undone) (http://archiveofourown.org/works/478765) by cybermathwitch - Natasha is in New Mexico instead of Clint (rated teen and no warnings)

Brown and Gold (http://archiveofourown.org/works/470858) by cybermathwitch - Dragonriders of Pern AU - I enjoyed this so much and haven't even read the Dragonriders books!

(I just realized that I have read treat 'em and street 'em (http://archiveofourown.org/works/480923/chapters/836173), a previously recced story, and LOVED IT so go read that, too!)

the waters and the wild (http://archiveofourown.org/works/478786) by ashen_key - Fairy Tale AU (rated Mature with violence warning)

And then I realized that I have a ton of AUs on my "To Be Read" list that I need to get to! This list isn't NEARLY as complete as it should be. *sighs*

Two that I haven't read but are on my list and I really need to get to them right away because I hadn't realized that I'd missed these in the first run through:

Rascals, Scoundrels, Villians and Knaves (http://archiveofourown.org/works/631799/chapters/1142894) by frea_o because PIRATES! (rated teen and no warnings)

The Pursuit of Phenomenally Unlikely Payoffs"> by tielan because HIGH SCHOOL/HOGWARTS!

Okay, I have to quit now or I'm never going to get to my list of things to do today! (http://archiveofourown.org/works/493142/chapters/862042)

Edited 2013-05-04 05:08 pm (UTC)

aww, thanks for reccing RSVK. There are a couple on here I haven't read, so this is gonna be an awesome week (plus an update from Slynn, it's like they knew I had stuff to do this weekend and laughed in my face).

Can I just say a huge THANK YOU for this ATTF post? because here I have a list of delicious AU fics that I ahven't read and I am soooooo happy!!!

:D

Some marvelous stuff here and in comments. May we link at metanews?

Well, I have no objections.