Okay, so the Infinity War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_War) was a HUGE freaking part of my childhood - the arc that got me into comics and made me care about heroes.

Couple that with Thanos and this shot of the gauntlet in Odin's treasure room (http://mimg.ugo.com/201202/7/7/6/218677/cuts/thor-paramount-home-ent_480_poster.png), a blillion doppelgangers, a scene where Thor flies a neutron bomb into space to protect everyone, and whatever this is:

and I don't see how it could possibly be a bad idea.

Plus, this of all the awesome that could happen if Clint or Natasha got doppeled, and the other had to kill them? GAH I WANT IT.

Whoa. SRS PLT IS SRS.

So are the doppels like skrulls? (sp?)

I remember hearing something about the stuff in Odin's treasure room being important later so I've wondered if that might factor into a later story. Do we have any hints from Thor2?

So if you get doppeled is the original person immobilized? Or do you just have soap-opera evil twin person running around effing shit up?


Edited 2013-01-25 01:56 pm (UTC)

So. I don't know about infinity gauntlets or wars (I'm a comic illiterate) but here's roughly what I see based on the final (non-shawarma) scene:

The movie will need to factor in what happened in Captain America 2, which will have been released by then, and I assume that during that Clint and Natasha will have finally resolved their UST issues after a brief jealousy interlude with the Winter Soldier. So now they're celebrating someplace nice (I envision Long Island, but that's just me; that boat from the Bourne Legacy would be nice, too); Tony and Bruce are playing in the lab; Steve is driving his bike around the country trying to learn how it works now, and is quietly appalled.

Bruce notices a spike in the space-time continuum roughly around the same time as Fury finds he's been replaced as Director by Maria Hill, because the WSC is pissed off abut that whole nuke thing, and afraid he might rat them out to the media.

The spike, turns out, is Thanos and his gang attacking Asgard -- (a) to take a spot of revenge on Loki and (b) because they decided Earth was too much trouble and after Loki's defeat, maybe Asgard would be an easier hit. But that infinity glove thing would work, too ... Anyway, Asgard is in trouble and Thor calls for help.

Mayhem ensues, with the WSC refusing to allow SHIELD resources to be used, making the split between the Avengers and SHIELD permanent.

Clint has a major WTF? meltdown when he is asked to go to Asgard with the gang (me? help Loki???) but Natasha brings him 'round and everybody goes to Asgard and helps out, via a new bridge built by Jane Foster and Erik Selvig.

More mayhem, including some lovely visuals of the art deco world of Agard going to pot and things falling out of the bottom (since it's not really a planet but a disc). Ironman makes a lot of Flat Earth jokes but ends up holding the place up and patching the holes. Great confrontation between Clint and Loki, during which Clint has to decide whether to let him live or die, and comes down on the side of the former. Natasha and Sif do some badass girl bonding.

But at the end of the movie Loki does a runner to Jotunheim, because gratitude really isn't his thing, and Tom Hiddleston has a contract for more movies.





Edited 2013-01-25 03:08 pm (UTC)

dude, a clint revenge/catharsis arc could be really interesting. and i love the idea of keeping asgard in play through all of it, whether it's the infinity gauntelet or seomthine else). i wonder since it doesn't looke like hawketye is going to be cap2 if they will have a chance to resolve the c/n stuff before avengers2, but it could happen. (i just really really don't want it to happen offscreen b/c ... sadness.)

The movie will need to factor in what happened in Captain America 2, which will have been released by then, and I assume that during that Clint and Natasha will have finally resolved their UST issues after a brief jealousy interlude with the Winter Soldier.

We should definitely do a reprise of this topic after Iron Man 3, Cap 2 and Thor 2, 'cause they'll hold plenty of hints.

I know that there will a cosmic threat in Avengers 2, but I'm kind of hoping there will be some utterly human villains in Phase 2 and 3, just because humans without supernatural or extraterrestrial aid can be super scary and compelling.

But at the end of the movie Loki does a runner to Jotunheim, because gratitude really isn't his thing, and Tom Hiddleston has a contract for more movies.

Bwhahahahaha! Yes, but now he owes the Avengers - specifically Clint - a debt...

**********AVENGERS 2 news/spec discussion below**********

Btw, Kevin Feige is teasing "7 things" that will make Avengers 2 worth the price of admission alone, and says that there'll be hints at these things in the Phase 2 movies.

Not really spoiler-y, in my opinion, but obviously read at your own risk: http://splashpage.mtv.com/2013/01/24/avengers-2-kevin-feige-joss-whedon/

Excited!

Really hoping that Whedon's comments that he's planning to go deeper rather than bigger mean that he'll explore Clint and Natasha's "cool bond" even more in A2. And I also hope that if Winter Soldier/Natasha is a thing in Captain America 2 (even just hints at a past relationship), that Avengers 2 puts Hawkeye and Black Widow/Hawkeye back in the game. 'Cause that chemistry just should not go to waste.

Awesome article. Thanks for the link!

Dude they have to use that chemistry like whoa. And if I'm writing Avengers2, my main goal is not to bring too many damn characters into the mix. You have six main characters + villain(s) and that is plenty. PLENTY. And I think to go deeper you've got to keep the landscape relatively uncluttered.

That's the hope/prayer/fervant wish at least. :)

So. I am one of those people who never read the comics, so I'm not sure how useful I can be when it comes to bad guys. I don't have my "favorite villain", and as far as I'm concerned, it's not the thing I'm most interested in. I do like smart villains, ones who push the right buttons (Loki was very good at that!).

I'll tell you what I would like to see in Avengers 2:

*within-team connections. In the first team they had to decide "Okay, we're fighting this fight together, as a team". This time I'd like to see them reaching a decision to really trust each other

*a little bit of backstories? Fury, Maria Hill? Let's not even mention how everyone in team except Clint and Nat has a backstory. Tell me more about Clint and Natasha :D

*angst and tension which are resolved in satisfying way (which in my book can be lots of angst, but a good ending. No tragedies, please. These movies are supposed to make us all happy, yes?)

*feelings between Clint and Natasha coming out in the open. Okay, that's my biggest wish, and I even have a scene. There's a fight. Clint is in a building/structure/somewhere where something collapses on him. Nat runs to see if he's okay, and finds him under rubble,. motionless. We get a scene a la Firefly (remember how Inara reacted when she thought Mal was dead?); only without anesthetic lipstick. In fact, Clint wakes up, holds her face and starts kissing back. She pretends to get angry, but he tells her there's no way he'd die and miss this (aka kissing). Boys show up and Tony says they should get a room, and Clint tells him they are going to, as soon as possible (as soon they get rid of bad guys). In order to achieve that more fighting is needed, which looks awesome just like the final fight in the first movie. Clint's hand is broken, so he can't use a bow, but Natasha borrows him one of his guns? (Maybe she can try the bow? Maybe in teh beginning of the movie Clint is giving her archery lessons? *G*)

Anyway, at the end, Clint and Nat get that room. or a balcony. Or any place where they can sit curled together and exchange kisses and enjoy some pretty landscape.

This sums up my wishes! Also< I don't want Clint and Nat shipped with other people. That might easily be a deal breaker for me. I OTP these two too hard to watch them with someone else.

OMG THE MAL/INARA SCENE WITH A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ENDING WOULD GIVE ME LIFE!!! THIS IS GENIUS!!!

a little bit of backstories? Fury, Maria Hill? Let's not even mention how everyone in team except Clint and Nat has a backstory. Tell me more about Clint and Natasha :D

Backstory! Perhaps even introducing Kate Bishop or Bobbie Morse for half a second (to give info about Clint, and to set up a Black Widow and Hawkeye movie)?

angst and tension which are resolved in satisfying way (which in my book can be lots of angst, but a good ending. No tragedies, please. These movies are supposed to make us all happy, yes?)

I say bring on the tragedy. We have too many characters, and we need to kill a few off. Steve could go, clearing the way for Bucky to take the mantel. I suppose Clint could die, clearing the way for Kate, but then everyone here would be sad and that would suck. Anyway, as long as Ant-man dies or doesn't show up, I'm a happy camper.

Boys show up and Tony says they should get a room, and Clint tells him they are going to, as soon as possible (as soon they get rid of bad guys).

Tony needling Clint and Natasha over their relationship and them turning it back around on him would be fun.

I actually want the relationship be fairly ambiguous (if only because, as with horror movies, imagination is always better than reality), even to the extent Clint or Natasha is trolling the others.

Whedon ships Clint and Natasha too hard for Nat to end up with Bucky, so I'm not too worried about that. My biggest hope for Avengers 2 is a 1) Set up for a Black Widow movie and 2) Black Widow and Hawkeye get an awesome teamwork scene (perhaps because the bad guy captured or incapacitated the powered characters, underestimating the normals) where we see both of them play to their strengths.

Edited 2013-01-25 05:24 pm (UTC)

Good point about Whedon shipping them. And I strongly approve of your hopes for avengers 2. :D

Whedon is shipping C/N? Really?? Where? Need evidence ...

And yes on the death threat. But I don't think Marvel will let him kill off a character that's actually selling comics. (She said, hopefully ...)

So... Let's see how the phone works for posting.

I want to mostly stick with the current characters we got in Avengers 1, and as much as I am a die hard shipper to the end, I want the shipping content to be ambiguous like it was in Avengers 1. I'd love for the tables to be turned, maybe have Natasha and another team member(Tony please?) captured or lost and fighting somewhere else so that we get an idea of how Clint and the others would react to that, but mostly just team feels all over the place and more of the fabulous fight direction and dialog we've gotten so far.

I like implication over showing directly because it gives us more room to play and speculate later. :-D

I would be good with ambiguous too, actually, if only because then I could make up whatever stories I wanted for them and wouldn't get crushed by Joss, hee.

Agree 100%. As much as I ship the couple, I am perfectly fine without actual on screen relationship. In fact, I almost would prefer not to have it, provided we still get scenes like in the first Avengers. I can count on one finger the Joss Whedon relationships that I liked that also ended happily, so I'm okay keeping it to fic.

dude your thoughts are my thoughts! I was just about to post the exact same thing- as much as I would love to know "what happened in Budapest" "How he made a different call" and so many other things.... I would love for it to be ambiguous and left for the fans to decide. I mean, look at the plethora of fics we have about them, and how vastly different they can be, and alllll the speculation/discussion- all that goes away once things get canonized (idk if that's a real word but I'm going with it ;) That may be kind of selfish but.... I really am ok with the vagueness.

And really all I want out of this movie is team dynamics/character interactions and bonding, fabulous fights, and awesomely hilarious dialog and banter! with a lot of Hawkeye/Black Widow scenes a la Avengers 1 of course ;)

I can't actually think of Avengers 2 without speculating what leads up to it so:

Okay, so we know from the Iron Man 3 trailer that Tony's Malibu house is going to go boom. What if there's also that thing with Pepper leading to Tony perhaps not openly acknowledging what the two of them have, but being...better with people. Like we've gone from the Tony of Iron Man needing having just Pepper and Rhodey and keeping them at arm's length to Tony inviting Bruce back to the Tower for fun science times and being so comfortable with Pepper in that opening Avengers scene and being part of a team.

In Captain America 2 I envisage Steve riding around the country, getting to know the new side of Amercia and familiarising himself with what never changes, then he gets called back in by SHIELD and Winter Solider mess happens, in which Natasha is involved, and Steve realises that whilst there are people like Bucky and Natasha that he has always and will always rely on, he hasn't always agreed with the military and he doesn't always agree with SHIELD.

Maybe in Thor 2 Thor goes from "Loki, come home" to "Loki, please don't forget that I am your brother" because he realises that he doesn't agree with everything on Asgard, that there's a lot to learn in living on Earth and he'd rather learn there than just be a carbon copy of his father.

Ant Man doesn't happen. Or if it does, Ant Man happens so that Janet/Wasp can show up, a fashion designer superhero, who bonds with Jane and Darcy, and happens to know Bobbi and the ladies dominate the film in the best fooled!ya movie twist ever. (Hey, I can dream.)

Meanwhile on the SHIELD tv show Maria is running everything, Fury messes with the WSC, Coulson is apparently not dead, random Agents chat around the coffee machine about how much mess the Avengers made, the WSC, damage control, other Agents, and other wonderfulness. A surprise!Clint listens in from the airducts. BECAUSE.

So that when we get Avengers 2 Tony is moving into New York, the Tower or the mansion, and really open to having a team!family, Steve wants to help people but not the SHIELD way, Steve and Natasha have bonded and Bucky is along for the ride, Thor is looking for a worthwhile way to be on Earth and learn whilst helping others, we have awesome ladies, and all of them have concerns about being connected to SHIELD, mainly because of the WSC. A Big Bad draws them all together - the credits sceen in Avengers suggests Thanos, but whatever THE MAIN THING is that they all come back together and move in to live with each other! Because there was a single A on Stark Tower at the end of Avengers and I consider that a promise, Joss!

As for Clint and Natasha...I see Natasha bonding with Steve, if only because Bucky is a friend of both of them and they had to deal with stuff in Winter Solider together, and Clint bonding with Tony and Bruce whilst Natasha's away, maybe being the SHIELD liason to Tony when all the mess in Iron Man 3 goes down, because Coulson is dead and a lot of people in SHIELD don't want to work with Clint and he and Tony know each other. I'm with the people above who said they'd rather we get subtle Clint/Natasha or it's left to our imaginations, I think. But in a way that I want everyone bonding with everyone else, sparks flying as they clash and realise that won't stop them from a team!family, and...can we have everyone speculating on Clint/Natasha? What if it became like a running gag of sorts, where everyone has an opinion but Joss never gives us anything completely sure? Because that would make me laugh a lot and sail this ship with glee.

Ant Man doesn't happen. Or if it does, Ant Man happens so that Janet/Wasp can show up, a fashion designer superhero, who bonds with Jane and Darcy, and happens to know Bobbi and the ladies dominate the film in the best fooled!ya movie twist ever. (Hey, I can dream.)

YES! THIS! Want so bad.

can we have everyone speculating on Clint/Natasha? What if it became like a running gag of sorts, where everyone has an opinion but Joss never gives us anything completely sure?

With even the camera getting in on the act? Like when they all get their call to arms, Natasha is sleeping on the right side of a bed with x color sheets, and Clint is sleeping on the left side with the same color, but you never actually see them together.

This is Thanos, who is so ridiculously out of the Avengers league, that the only thing that defeats him without someone dying is bad writing. So, since I consider Joss a good writer, one of the Avengers has to die. Thanos can pimp slap the Hulk and make Stark look like an idiot, these people are bugs to him, someone will die. Purely because the Mad Titan must appease his lady love Death, in the comics he killed off half the universe with the Infinity Gauntlet to show his love, so the bodies have to pile up.
Also, since this is Joss and everything I have read in relation from him, Scarlett or Renner to the MCU Black Widow leans towards the "she isn't just a girlfriend/romantic interest for anyone", I can't envision a scenario where you get any blatant emotion between her and anyone, Hawkeye or Winter Soldier.
So in IM3, you basically having Stark brought to the brink of death, insanity and bankruptcy by the Mandarin, with him likely emerging possibly more machine than man in an Extremis like cyborg incarnation. Cap2 introducing Steve's two best buddies from the comics Falcon and Winter Soldier, while battling a cyborg Armin Zola, Crossbones and possibly Baron Zemo. Thor2 having Loki, Malekith, Kurse and possibly Surtur basically tear the nine realms to pieces. Phase 2 is going to end with most members of the Avengers broken, the will all emerge with victory, but at what cost to themselves.
Only to face Thanos, a villain of cosmic level intelligence and strength, armed with possibly the Infinity Gauntlet. This is something the cannot defeat, even with the Guardians of the Galaxy aiding them, unless sacrifices are made.

So why does somebody have to die? B/c Thanos is too much of a badass? Joss definitely knows how to kill people off, but I was hoping we could avoid that, at least with the original 6.

I wonder if I'm one of the only people who doesn't want any new Avengers to join the roster. I love the cast just as it is, especially those who tend to get smaller amounts of screentime, and don't want any of their screentime leeched by new characters!

you're probably out of luck there as you've got Ant Man, Wasp, Falcon, War Machine, Winter Soldier and the Guardians of the Galaxy all with the possibility of getting screen time in A2.

I haven't thought a lot about Avengers 2 because like Christopher Nolan or Tarantino I trust Whedon to tell the best possible story. There are certain directors or writers (Jason Katims is another) that I trust that I personally may not get what I want, but I will get the best story for these characters.

I agree with a lot of you that I want to keep the cast smaller. It's already big and I know Whedon is very talented on handling ensemble casts, I don't want it to get too bloated.

As for Clint and Natasha, I just want Whedon to highlight the connection the two have, but it doesn't need to be romantic. I feel like we can fill in those blanks if we need to. Some of my favorite couple never happen on screen, or they don't until towards the very end. It's not about drawing out the will they or won't they (I personally think that the argument that a couple becomes less interesting once they get together is stupid...see Castle). It's just about not even touching it. One of my favorite couples was Betty and Daniel on Ugly Betty. They were just best friends for four seasons and towards the end there was hints of romance, but no big declaration or anything. It was just this super solid friendship/connection. I kind of want that for Clint and Natasha.

I like Clint and Natasha independently of any romance, they are really strong characters. I think that they don't need a romance to keep them interesting. If it happens, I'm not opposed to it, I just think Whedon's time would be better served balancing the group dynamic and giving characters depth.

I like Clint and Natasha independently of any romance, they are really strong characters. I think that they don't need a romance to keep them interesting. If it happens, I'm not opposed to it, I just think Whedon's time would be better served balancing the group dynamic and giving characters depth.

Yah. Though all of these time issues would be solved if they just had a Black Widow movie!

With you on the Daniel and Betty. I still need to watch a few episodes though.

This thread is distracting. I should be working. Lol, oh, well, I can't really say that I mind... :D I unfortunately don't have time to read everything, so forgive me if I'm repeating something others have already said.

I don't know much about the comics beyond what I've read in fan fiction, so I don't really have preferences for a villain/show down.

As for Clint and Nat's relationship, though, my inner shipper jumps out and says, "Yes, please, show something concrete!" But, I agree, I don't think they *need* that to keep things interesting. They're both such great characters, and have a fabulous chemistry as it is.

In any case, what I would love to see is more of Clint and Nat. I have heard that Jeremy Renner complained about how little he actually got to play Loki-free Hawkeye, and as much as I love the whole concept of mind-control (such wonderful angst) I can see why he was irritated.

Hawkeye is such a fascinating character and no matter how you view his relationship with Natasha, their dynamic is gold. We only got brief glimpses of that. So, I would love to see *more* - how they interact, their inside jokes, and how the team views them...

I would also love Hawkeye to have some sort of pivotal role in how things go down, simply because I love the idea of the "normal" human being the one that makes the difference. Not to mention, his skill with a bow is awesome, and I'd love to see that shown off.

IF THIS THREAD ISN'T DISTRACTING, THEN WE ARE NOT DOING OUR JOB. WOO! \O/

And omg I am so with you on just wanting MORE of them in any way, shape or form. Yes. Pls.

I would also love Hawkeye to have some sort of pivotal role in how things go down, simply because I love the idea of the "normal" human being the one that makes the difference. Not to mention, his skill with a bow is awesome, and I'd love to see that shown off.

THIS.

Edited 2013-01-26 02:46 am (UTC)

So I'm on the bandwagon of "less is more" and "keep it ambiguous." As much as I would LOVE to know what happened in Budapest, how the two met, and so many other details.... I'm really ok not having a canon answer. I've always been drawn more towards the secondary/tertiary characters, in part because they are vague, you don't know *everything* about them and that leaves a lot up to the imagination. I mean, look at what fandom has come up with based on the little snippets we were given in the movie! I feel like if we have canon answers then that puts a damper on things (that may be a little selfish idk but its how I feel ;)

But I still definitely want shipper moments in the movie :D Also, I think it would be cool if they ended up being secretly married. The whole will they/won't they lets dance around our feelings thing, while enjoyable to watch at times, has been done so many times it can get old, especially if its dragged out for season after season (I know this is a movie and not a tv show, but that's how the analogy went in my head ;) It would be refreshing/change of pace to have them be already together. You can still have tension and drama, but it would be different.

The other things I would like out of this movie are more character bonding moments. Does Tony finish his tower with floors for every Avenger? Who is actually living there at the start of the movie? We know the science bros bonded, but what about the others? Natasha and Steve? Clint and Tony? Thor and Steve? I would like to see the team bonding and coming together without an approaching alien invasion forcing them to unite.

and of course, tons of witty banter and dialog :D and is it too much to ask for Coulson to come back in a non lame cliche way? Because that would be awesome! I loved Coulson, and him coming back/not being dead could serve some plot points, maybe further the divide between SHIELD and the Avengers, further cementing their distrust in Fury, etc.

Also, I have a feeling things will be way more epic, especially after we get IM3, Thor2, and CA2... more epic in the sense that the main battles may take place away from Earth/ in outer space/other realms/Asgard? Which made me realize just how much I need to see Sif and Natasha be all badass and awesome together!

Everything you said!

I agree that it would be so much fun to find out they are already together. I think it wouldn't diminish the interest there, especially since they are obviously putting themselves in danger. There would be plenty of natural points to create tension.

I also agree with the the kind of non-traditional pairing interactions. I really want Clint to bond with someone because he had next to no interactions with the team in Avengers (understandable bc of plot). I want more. And Natasha and Steve seem like they would be bffs and I want to see that. They are both quiet, fish out of the water type people.

Finally, I also love what you said about being drawn to side characters. Those are always the characters I care most about (which means a lot of my fave characters die) because they are the ones you have more wiggle room to imagine their back stories and what forms their character. They are often the most interesting characters too, that don't fall into archetypes.